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The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

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Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#81

Post by typeformer »

sliverstorm wrote: post #57
typeformer wrote: post #40

I grew up in Livingston MT just a 20 min drive from the Crazies, I know these trails, and this is one if the saddest things I have ever read on HN. Now I live on the West coast but I miss Montana all the time and visit whenever I can. To be honest, I really can't fathom how terrible things have gotten politically with the likes of the despicably corrupt Zinke and Gioforte. Personally, I watched everything change so f…

tech per se isn't the main force killing MT, or the west, it's mostly our values that are. Which values? Can you expand a little? I have guesses, but would like to hear from you.

I'm actually working on a solar punk book about this topic too, hehe. It can be hard to articulate but the word that does it best is "wetiko". No book has impacted me more in my worldview in the last three years than, "Columbus and Other Cannibals: The Wetiko Disease of Exploitation, Imperialism, and Terrorism" by Jack D. Forbes, a native professor who started the first Native American Studies Program.

If you read only one single book this year, please read this small powerful book. On a personal note, my father didn't teach me much very much technically, or set the greatest example, but he did share his love of Montana, Flyfishing, the rivers and the mountains with me when I was young and I'm forever be grateful to him for that (even if he kind of an asshole). He taught me to respect nature, and leave no trace, values that he learned from my grandfather when they went on Sierra Club trips together. I spent 17 amazing years in Montana, some of the very best of my life and I hear it calling me back. I'm getting a bit emotional as I type this, but even if it takes humanity a while to articulate it exactly, and much will be left unspoken, we know what is missing, we feel it deep down, and no amount of tech or money will ever fill that void. We need to move in harmony with the natural world and each other "be in right relations" as many first nations people call it. It will take time, be more than anything it will take some soul searching and courage.

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#82

Post by mindslight »

makomk wrote: post #10

Wow. I'm pretty sure the idea of public rights of way as a legal right of access across private property predates the entire US. That's a hell of a thing for the government to try and eradicate for the benefit of private landowners.

The main function of the modern government apparatus is to divide up the commons and parcel them out for private ownership. Coase was just another power-supplicating priest.

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#83

Post by typeformer »

takk309 wrote: post #49
jandrewrogers wrote: post #45

This is a complicated topic. I used to own the lower part of a mountain valley (out west but not in Montana). There were two dirt "roads" into the valley, both immediately against the titled property; the rest of the valley was Federal (BLM) land encircled by mountains that were effectively impassable. Americans generally have a right to use and temporarily occupy these Federal lands without permission, so if I put u…

The whole "locals only" thing is just as bad. How do you communicate to the locals what is okay and what is not? How do you define locals? Is it just those that live on the same road, those that you run into at the store? It has to be all or nothing. That is really what sucks with the whole situation.

This isn't a local or non-locals issue, but it's just that due to the social dynamics of Montana it can get framed in those terms. But, really this is about public access to the public lands which should be sacred, constitutional even, like in Sweden.

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#84

Post by typeformer »

ewhanley wrote: post #59
typeformer wrote: post #40

I grew up in Livingston MT just a 20 min drive from the Crazies, I know these trails, and this is one if the saddest things I have ever read on HN. Now I live on the West coast but I miss Montana all the time and visit whenever I can. To be honest, I really can't fathom how terrible things have gotten politically with the likes of the despicably corrupt Zinke and Gioforte. Personally, I watched everything change so f…

I grew up in central Montana but now live on the west coast too, and I’m astonished at how quickly it’s changing. The bellwether for me is the fact that stream access law* is being challenged (most notably by Gianforte and other wealthy, often absentee landowners). If public stream access is lost, I’ll know the state and it’s civic makeup has changed irreversibly. *Everything below the high water mark is publicly acc…

This is very true, changing that law would be totally catastrophic!

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#85

Post by derefr »

ewhanley wrote: post #59
typeformer wrote: post #40

I grew up in Livingston MT just a 20 min drive from the Crazies, I know these trails, and this is one if the saddest things I have ever read on HN. Now I live on the West coast but I miss Montana all the time and visit whenever I can. To be honest, I really can't fathom how terrible things have gotten politically with the likes of the despicably corrupt Zinke and Gioforte. Personally, I watched everything change so f…

I grew up in central Montana but now live on the west coast too, and I’m astonished at how quickly it’s changing. The bellwether for me is the fact that stream access law* is being challenged (most notably by Gianforte and other wealthy, often absentee landowners). If public stream access is lost, I’ll know the state and it’s civic makeup has changed irreversibly. *Everything below the high water mark is publicly acc…

> Everything below the high water mark is publicly accessible per Montana state law

Huh, does that mean you can legally travel through someone's private property by walking/wading the length of a stream that passes through it? (i.e. the stream is effectively a public footpath?)

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#86

Post by typeformer »

sliverstorm wrote: post #55
wavefunction wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You get some rich people from somewhere else who move in and throw all local culture and tradition away. It's happening in Colorado. Every Fourteener (14,000+ foot mountains) used to be publicly accessible but we got some greedy folks who moved in and shut down that traditional access to at least five of them so far. If I ever come into a sizable fortune my plan is to acquire these lands and turn them over to the pub…

I share your dream plan, but with the public lands transfer movement fear the Fed would one day soon turn around and sell the bequeathment for a song. It might not happen today or this decade, but public lands are not immutable. So then I wonder if the best option is to set up some kind of management trust.

The research is clear that Community Land Trust work, for both land management and for affordable housing. We need more CLT's and Co-ops all over this country.

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#87

Post by typeformer »

googlryas wrote: post #29
njarboe wrote: post #22

As a research geologist, working in the western US has generally been great because of so much easy access to a large amount of public land. But, over the last 5 years or so, I have noticed more ranchers gating off roads going through their land. This is especially annoying when they have a small in-holding in a national forest or BLM land and the road that has been used for over 100 years is now blocked. Most times…

Should it be illegal to put up 'no trespassing' signs when there is clearly a longstanding public easement?

Probably, but I've seen a few signs that we're polite and clear about what was public and what was private.

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#88

Post by borkt »

wavefunction wrote: post #44
typeformer wrote: post #40

I grew up in Livingston MT just a 20 min drive from the Crazies, I know these trails, and this is one if the saddest things I have ever read on HN. Now I live on the West coast but I miss Montana all the time and visit whenever I can. To be honest, I really can't fathom how terrible things have gotten politically with the likes of the despicably corrupt Zinke and Gioforte. Personally, I watched everything change so f…

You get some rich people from somewhere else who move in and throw all local culture and tradition away. It's happening in Colorado. Every Fourteener (14,000+ foot mountains) used to be publicly accessible but we got some greedy folks who moved in and shut down that traditional access to at least five of them so far. If I ever come into a sizable fortune my plan is to acquire these lands and turn them over to the pub…

I really have no expertise in this area but with the amount of lawsuits that occur these days it feels like as soon as someone was paralyzed or killed accessing this land you would be on the hook for not preventing them from accessing it. I would hope that this isn't the case but it just feels like the way thinks are going.

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#89

Post by typeformer »

ihuman wrote: post #27
ckamin5 wrote: post #23

Lately just about every single Bloomberg article I've tried to read has been behind a paywall. Any way around it?

It's not the answer you want to hear, but you could pay for access.

We do, it's called taxes. The noble economist Elinor Olstrom refuted the Tragedy of Commons by showing that the communities who are the most dependent on a resource are best folks to manage it. We need more local advocates engaged, and more pushback, we need to shame these fuckers and I hope this article gets people angry.

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#90

Post by tertius »

njarboe wrote: post #48
googlryas wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should it be illegal to put up 'no trespassing' signs when there is clearly a longstanding public easement?

I imagine it is, but they put up the signs on the fences on both sides of the road, which is their property and it is illegal to trespass. IANAL, but on undeveloped land in the US you have to put up 'no trespassing' signs generally before enforcing people not to trespass on your land. I reality the ranchers(in reality they are usually rich sport ranchers that live in a city and recently bought the property) don't eve…

Assuming a 'no trespassing sign.'

Closed gate with no lock, can't pass.

Closed gate with locked lock, can't pass.

Closed gate with unlocked lock, can pass.

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