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U.S. Consumer Bureau Loses Fight to Allow More Class-Action Suits

nytimes.com

221–230 of 249 posts

Re: U.S. Consumer Bureau Loses Fight to Allow More Class-Action Suits

#221

I'm losing faith in our system of government. Citibank did this to me on a credit card I had with them: 1. I stopped using the card for several months. 2. I then used it once on a small purchase. 3. They stopped sending me an e-mail reminders for my bill. (An "error" in their system disabled e-mails for my account specifically) 4. I racked up about $100 in late fees and interest charges. 5. I called them up and they…

I've been in similar situations and I've resolved them by writing an old fashioned letter to the company. It feels like a chore but it's much less stressful than interacting with telephone support. And letter handling departments seem to have more clueful employees.

Re: U.S. Consumer Bureau Loses Fight to Allow More Class-Action Suits

#222

It is entirely superficial to cast this fight as one between good and evil. As much as anything, it was about proper process. Legislative, executive, judicial - those are the three branches under the Constitution that are supposed to check and balance one another. The legislature passed the federal arbitration act almost 100 years ago. It was signed into law by the president. And it has been consistently upheld by th…

>For those who don't like it, that is fine. The ballot box is open as the prescribed means to effect a change. Every single sentence you wrote here is extremely ignorant of the political reality in which that usual proper process has been in the muck for years. You're not realizing the effect that gerrymandering, voter suppression, and money in politics has on the ability of the usual system to work to reflect the de…

It occurs to me that many current issues can be abstracted as follows:

When corporations have become powerful monopolies (or regional monopolies) that trample on individual rights and captured regulators, should the citizens still respect the procedural correctness to its literal meaning? Or should we acknowledge that we have a flawed constitution, because while it checks the power of the government, the U.S. visionaries did not foresee the emergence of multinational corporations, structured in highly authoritarian ways, being able to influence public policy to great extent?

I believe we can agree that public goods are typically not as efficient as a _competitive_ private provider. But what if the market is not competitive at all? When ISPs/health insurers/hospital conglomerates essentially monopolizes different regions of the country, should the government step up and provide community broadband, single payer insurance or single provider healthcare? Or should we expect the government somehow being able to restore market competitiveness?

Re: U.S. Consumer Bureau Loses Fight to Allow More Class-Action Suits

#223

It is entirely superficial to cast this fight as one between good and evil. As much as anything, it was about proper process. Legislative, executive, judicial - those are the three branches under the Constitution that are supposed to check and balance one another. The legislature passed the federal arbitration act almost 100 years ago. It was signed into law by the president. And it has been consistently upheld by th…

>For those who don't like it, that is fine. The ballot box is open as the prescribed means to effect a change. Every single sentence you wrote here is extremely ignorant of the political reality in which that usual proper process has been in the muck for years. You're not realizing the effect that gerrymandering, voter suppression, and money in politics has on the ability of the usual system to work to reflect the de…

Agreed. The biggest issue I have with the parent comment is that the current Congress is unabashedly selectively enforcing the legality of these regulatory agencies, with a suspicious emphasis on helping corporations.

Re: U.S. Consumer Bureau Loses Fight to Allow More Class-Action Suits

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m sure the free market will find a way to provide healthcare without insurance companies, an all-but-required middleman.

What free market are you talking about? Until we fix the collusion between the American Hospital Association[0] and insurance companies through the National Uniform Billing Committee[1] to opaquely set pricing, there will be no free market in the healthcare industry. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Hospital_Association [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Uniform_Billing_Commi...

I mean that if the ban on denying coverage for pre-existing conditions causes the health insurance industry to collapse I'm sure the actual health care industry will figure something out.

Re: U.S. Consumer Bureau Loses Fight to Allow More Class-Action Suits

#225

So I'm trying to figure out why this was even done. Here's the White House statement on it. From https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/10/24/state... > Statement Regarding Senate Passage of H.J. Res. 111 > President Donald J. Trump applauds the Congress for passing H.J. Res. 111, Disapproving of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau's (CFPB) Arbitration Agreements Rule. According to a recent report by t…

Here's what I'm seeing in the linked report:

1. They project 3,000 extra class actions will happen as a result of allowing class actions. The businesses receiving them will spend a lot of money on lawyers and settlements. They say the businesses probably won't absorb the damage for these claims. They might charge customers more. So, profit-hungry companies being hit with class actions will charge their customers more while benevolent ones won't and those not doing whatever actions cause class actions will be cheaper. Good companies, at least in court terms, will be cheaper.

2. Few (13%) of the class-actions result in relief to those affected and suing. They project four in five cases will provide no relief. This ignores a huge reason for class actions: making companies doing bad things lose enough money to change their practices. Class-actions have been far more successful at this than individual lawsuits or arbitrations due to the dollar amounts in No 1.

3. In class-actions that generate class-wide reliefs, few customers actually claim the funds they're offered. The report thinks this means the class-action was worthless. Again, ignores the value of getting justice and changing corporate activity in No 2 which might have been consumers' goal all along.

4. The plaintiffs' attorneys will make a lot of money doing the class-actions. Businesses being hit with class-actions will pay out an extra $330 million to their victims' attorneys. So what. It's a separate issue. The plaintiffs are still going for class actions so clearly they find this better than not doing the class action. The big companies are also fine with shelling out millions on attorneys and lobbyists to do what benefits them. Consumers will let those people make money to benefit them, too.

5. This report ignores the effect of meritless lawsuits. Defendents often settle just to avoid more damages. This is a general problem that. I'll also note that the kinds of companies often hit by class actions similarly push problems on people hoping most won't sue for extra damage. They're actually doing that right now by forcing arbitration. I feel little mercy for them.

6. The report claims the rule will not improve compliance by companies with rules or norms that benefit consumers. Claim there's been no improvement in class-actions over arbitration events. This is possible but not a disqualifier. The data I've seen shows class actions have changed corporate behavior before. I've also seen class actions or just big lawsuits that have had little effect. There's certainly no guarantees one method of justice and/or redress will accomplish its goals. That's also certainly not a reason to get rid of it.

In the analyses, the report also compared benefit of class actions versus arbitration supporting customers might want the benefits of arbitration. I may have skimmed over something but it seems they're ignoring the mandatory... no other option... part of arbitration status quo when consumers prefer to be able to do either option. If I didn't miss something, that would be misdirection in the report like how they ignored the punitive, market-changing effect of class action to focus entirely on money-making aspects.

Then, they do it again in the next report on cost-benefit analyses. They seem to just focus on money making and losing with no concern for consumers' right to essentially not be abused by collective industry behavior. The consumers didn't want mandatory arbitration to be deployed across the industry. The net benefit was companies kept their profits higher when they abused consumers. That's what the ban of mandatory arbitration is about. The cost-benefit analyses ignores this entirely.

So, this report seems to only look at money making, ignores what consumers wanted, ignores how the financial industry was shoving arbitration down consumers' throats to benefit at their expense, ignore consumer demand for justice against big companies being accused, and further argues against class-action on specific damages defendants will be hit with. This is definitely some kind of propaganda to support with little evidence the anti-consumer action of supporting mandatory arbitration clauses.

I have an alternative that addresses most of the financial damage in the report: the companies can stop doing financially-damaging or deceptive things to consumers that make such large numbers take action against them. There's lots of companies in most sectors that don't. They don't get hit with class actions. Instead, they get referrals from satisfied customers. Whoever wrote this report should look into that sort of thing. Might be worth drawing attention to.

Re: U.S. Consumer Bureau Loses Fight to Allow More Class-Action Suits

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would bias the process in favor of rich people who can afford to spend a week hanging out in DC meeting with members of Congress. It would do the most harm to interests that pool resources from large groups of regular folks, like unions or environmental groups.

>It would do the most harm to interests that pool resources from large groups of regular folks, like unions or environmental groups. It harms oil lobbyists and big ag and tobacco and all those industries in exactly the same way it's going to hurt the Sierra Club. I'd still call that a win for the little guy. >That would bias the process in favor of rich people who can afford to spend a week hanging out in DC meeting…

> It harms oil lobbyists and big ag and tobacco and all those industries in exactly the same way it's going to hurt the Sierra Club.

It would not, because under your rules an industry executive could draw a salary while talking to government officials because they would be pursuing their own self-interest in doing so. But a Sierra Club employee could not because the sole purpose of the Sierra Club is to represent the interests of other people (their members).

A rule that prohibits a person from getting paid to represent other people would hurt representative organizations (nonprofits) more than rich individuals and for-profit companies.

Re: U.S. Consumer Bureau Loses Fight to Allow More Class-Action Suits

#227

It is entirely superficial to cast this fight as one between good and evil. As much as anything, it was about proper process. Legislative, executive, judicial - those are the three branches under the Constitution that are supposed to check and balance one another. The legislature passed the federal arbitration act almost 100 years ago. It was signed into law by the president. And it has been consistently upheld by th…

Agreed. Unfortunately we find ourselves in an era of legislative stagnation. Obscure and popular policy alike have been unable to move through the legislative process for almost seven years. Compounding the problem is the rapid pace of change we live with. The legislature, unable to resolve many of the issues of the 20th century is building a heap of 21st century ones. And the growth rate of that heap is increasing,…

> If history is any indicator, in political systems this broken, other institutions collect power and either that power is sustained and relieves legal pressure or that power is revoked and the pressure builds until the system comes apart.

Just curious if you can give a good Western example for similar things happening in history?

I found striking parallels between the United States and China's Tang Dynasty. The Tang Dynasty was the most prosperous and influential era of ancient China, in terms of both culture and military. It was marked with culture fusion and immigrants from across the sino-sphere settled in its capital. During the early times of this dynasty, a meritocratic higher education admission system was first instituted to provide an avenue for upward mobility. Life was prosperous and Tang people were fat.

All of that started falling apart after 200 years of reign, and the late stage of the empire was dysfunctionalized by highly partisan power struggles between two fractions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niu–Li_factional_strife). The meritocracy also failed, as the rich could afford better education and examination preparation, and the examiners gave preference to the applicants from wealthy families. You can call it the Imperial Chinese Ivy League legacy. The power of the throne waned, and the emperors were stuck between or murdered by warlords and eunuchs.

Tang Dynasty lasted a total of 289 years. If the United States survives 2065, then it beats Tang’s record.

Re: U.S. Consumer Bureau Loses Fight to Allow More Class-Action Suits

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In America, “one person, one vote” only arose in the 1960s. The Constitution was framed with suffrage for only land-owning white men. > That's not how it should work, right? That’s a big question. I don’t think it’s safe to presume it’s answer.

...what? You think a society where some votes count more than others is better? That seems to only be possible if you presume that you/people-who-think-like-you-do would be the ones with more votes.

> You think a society where some votes count more than others is better?

2.5% of voting age Americans cannot vote, because of felony sentences. In some states (Florida) it can be as high as 10% of the population. Is some states (e.g. Florida, Alabama, Virginia, Mississippi) over 25% of voting age black male population cannot vote.

In most European countries, also felons and prisoners are allowed to vote.

Re: U.S. Consumer Bureau Loses Fight to Allow More Class-Action Suits

#229
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With (most) arbitration clauses, you can't actually sue at all. You have to go through a private arbitration firm, which can set pretty much whatever rules they want - including things like basing rulings on religious law [1]. Compared to that, I'm pretty sure there'd be nothing illegal about rules to defeat the hypothetical law firm, like requiring complainants to show up in person. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2015/…

Except they have to get all of those millions of lawsuits dismissed individually by advancing that argument and failing in even a single of those cases through a novel argument on the part of plaintiff, sympathetic judge, etc could open an avalanche of lawsuits against the firms. It also would force the courts dismissing the lawsuits to grapple with the sheer scale of criminality that the dismissals are being used to…

I mean, the judge is going to respond by sanctioning the attorney(s) for frivolous litigation. If your legal argument (for why the case shouldn't go to arbitration) has been rejected in court, initiating even one more case before the same court with the exact same argument could justifiably be considered a waste of the court's time. Initiate several of them and you're going to be fined; 10,000 and you're probably looking at things like contempt-of-court charges and disbarment. That's aside from the fee to initiate each case, as Chaebixi mentioned.

That said, if you're willing to risk all that to make a political statement - i.e. to pressure legislatures to change the law around arbitration - I can't rule out that it could be effective. But I suspect that other avenues for making a statement would be cheaper and more effective (and avoid the stigma of abusing the court system).

For example, how about just taking out TV ads? Find some maximally sympathetic victims of the arbitration system, and have them tell their stories. Less dramatic, but right now I think there isn't all that much public awareness of the issue - the New York Times' series notwithstanding. Arbitration is such a classic "big corp screwing over the little guy" story that I think a large number of even Republican-leaning voters would oppose it, especially the Trump camp (ew, but still), if they heard the full story. But most of them have probably never heard of it, or have only heard one-sided accounts that emphasize how class-action suits cost businesses and don't usually win plaintiffs all that much money. (Both of which are true, but ignore the fact that class actions are effective at holding defendants accountable for violating the law, and getting them to change their behavior - whereas a trickle of arbitration cases can just be dismissed as a cost of business.)

Re: U.S. Consumer Bureau Loses Fight to Allow More Class-Action Suits

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Unfortunately we find ourselves in an era of legislative stagnation. Obscure and popular policy alike have been unable to move through the legislative process for almost seven years. Compounding the problem is the rapid pace of change we live with. The legislature, unable to resolve many of the issues of the 20th century is building a heap of 21st century ones. And the growth rate of that heap is increasing,…

> If history is any indicator, in political systems this broken, other institutions collect power and either that power is sustained and relieves legal pressure or that power is revoked and the pressure builds until the system comes apart. Just curious if you can give a good Western example for similar things happening in history? I found striking parallels between the United States and China's Tang Dynasty. The Tang…

The late Roman Republic comes to mind. Problems regarding labor, citizenship and military service became significant after the third Punic War. The oligarchic Senate was opposed to really any major changes in these areas that would relieve the problems.

As things grew more dire a succssion of more and more radical populist leaders attempted to change the system from within by standing for election but most were assassinated.

Generals like Marius and Sulla began skirting the law to move the law ahead as they saw fit but leaving the system intact. Finally, Julius Caesar came along with a promise to fix everything but by destroying the republican system rather than by conforming to it. At this point it's no surprise that many Romans no longer cared.

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