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I have no side code projects to show you

codementor.io

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Re: I have no side code projects to show you

#211
My open source projects have gotten me all but 1 of my last 4 jobs. Hands down.

Yes, I still had to pass the interview, but when you can claim that your NPM package ballooned to a million monthly downloads suddenly the conversation changes from writing code to architecture, product management, and leadership.

Essentially you are telling the guy on the other side of the desk that I can solve problems nobody else in the world is capable of solving (or willing to try) and here is my proof. The clear response from that guy on the other side of the desk is to refocus on the things involved with that level of effort/output.

I have never had to worry about competition from other candidates. It has nothing to do with what I think of myself (ego or arrogance) and everything to do with how they perceive the potential I could deliver back to the company.

Second and third order consequences of this, that nobody but the interviewer sees, is that you won't need your hands held like a child. You don't need all the popular abstractions, frameworks, and mountains of tooling that other candidates cannot live without. The reason for this bias, and it took me a while to see it, is that you are spending all that extra time outside the office solving many of the same problems as people at the office except that you are doing it without a financial incentive, greater time constraints, fewer resources, and often in a more portable way.

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Now let's look at the candidate who only works at the office and has no open source projects to demonstrate and they are competing against somebody like me who would rather be working on open source for free than doing the job they are (well) paid to perform. What does the interview have to ask that guy to assess their skills?

It isn't about the code that is on Github. Nobody has time to scrutinize that. It is about the product, product quality, market penetration, the kinds of problems you have solved. It is about how you achieve popularity where other people did not and with a budget of 0 (maybe spending on a web server). But since you don't write open source and don't do work outside the office this conversation never arrises. The interviewer is limited to asking you about how to write code like you are a newb.

Re: I have no side code projects to show you

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want people to show up with code why aren't you asking them to take home something and show you their solution in the interview, working through it step by step?

I guess I see that as disrespectful of their time, but I could probably work something like that out. I run a small shop. I am allowed to use my good judgment.

I think the expectation that I have random projects that I'm passionate about to be more disrespectful of my time. I have to compete against an unknown, I don't know what the other people interviewing will be doing for their projects so I have to try and make it more impressive than projects I don't even know about.

It's much less stressful and takes much less time to give me a basic to intermediate coding problem to solve on my own with a pre-set number of days/hours to work on it.

Re: I have no side code projects to show you

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, sure. And if you followed the letter of the law I’m sure you deleted it all from your laptop promptly and is unavailable to you no matter what. But if you didn’t, for whatever reason, and you happen to have an illegal copy of some production CRUD app hanging around so I can look at how you organize your thoughts, nobody I’ve interviewed has ever gotten even a whiff of heat for letting me look over their shoulde…

You start off relationships with potential new subordinates by asking them to break the law in order to demonstrate their value to you? Wtf man.

I don’t know their arrangment with their old employer and I don’t ask. Very often folks will have an ongoing maintenance consulting relationship and retain some IP just in case. More often folks will just have some stuff lying around, and they’re already breaching their contract by having it.

Believe it or not, there’s next to nothing I’ve ever seen that was the remotest bit interesting on an industrial espionage level. Just regular old business logic that was either cleanly done, or not.

I honestly could not recall any of the crap from the interviews I’ve done beyond a sense of how people thought.

Anyways, you wanna do some interviews your way, be my guest. I will happily send the guys who don’t want to do show and tell to you. I’m not trying to be all things to all people. No open source, no closed source, no side projects? We can play API bingo or code a b-tree, but prob not a culture fit.

Re: I have no side code projects to show you

#214
Hmm, I suspect I'd have the opposite problem if I were to go interviewing again. As I teach students, there's an awful lot of whipped-together-in-an-hour demos on there from answering student questions by writing tiny non-meticulous examples.

To be honest, though, I've tended to find interviews go well when the interviewer goes off-piste. Probably because you've both decided your each reasonably smart, and are letting the conversation go where it leads.

Re: I have no side code projects to show you

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Giving a candidate a "take-home assignment" is actually the most disrespectful of the options listed. Unless you're an awesome company, with really cool projects and offering me a jaw dropping salary and benefits, then no, I'm not going to do free work for you. Even if you are an awesome company, people probably have to actually work for you to see that, so no, I'm not going to do free work for you. I'd rather spend…

That's fine, I'm happy to hire someone who is dedicated, passionate, and loves coding enough to to a quick assignment. Its not free work, its a demonstration of skill. In fact, we just hired someone who did that, and her assignment came back better than expected. At first we were so-so on her due to potential lack of experience, but the assignment (and her projects on her personal site) showed us were wrong.

So you are admitting you are bad about making decisions about people? Luckily you have something empirical because you are no good at judging someone. Thanks for admitting that, the first step is accepting you are no good at evaluating people.

Ha, but seriously, I hate take home assignments.

Re: I have no side code projects to show you

#216
post #11
post #8

How would you go about putting a personal side project up on github if you are stuck with an employment contract that says your employer owns all your intellectual output, even that which you produce on your own time? Yes, I realize that stipulation is there for general protection of the employer and not typically intended to be used in a draconian way, however it still leaves the door open for you to get sued into o…

I had a side project that I wanted to make into a side business. I worked with my employer to write up a doc that said they'd have no claim on it and would let me own it. My employer did have the "we own everything you make" in my contract.

I know someone who tried that - the company fired him, plus the company fought paying him unemployment. You gotta watch out!

Re: I have no side code projects to show you

#217
post #31

I’m not mad at you, but as the dude on the other side of the desk, I have to decide whether you can cut it and I’m fine saying no. I could make you do some whiteboard problems, but I think whiteboard problems are pretty far removed from your day to day development and I am uncomfortable relying on them as a proxy for your ability to ship code. I don’t really disagree with your philosophy of working while you’re worki…

> unmaintainable junk Isn't that what pretty much every side project is anyway? Unless you're an active OSS developer the chances of any of your projects being worthy of judgment is pretty slim. I've got 10-12 repos on github I can show you...they're all half baked weekend projects that I did just to tinker with some new technology or idea I had. None of them are production quality, and most of them I'm appalled at a…

A lot of programming is real grimy and there’s a lot of skeletons in every closet. Par for the course. I’ve seen it all. The code isn’t the code, it’s a conversation we have about how you think. So many people dragging me in this thread think it’s about the code. It is not. I’m interested in the person. The code is just an artifact and a conversation piece.

Re: I have no side code projects to show you

#218
post #42
post #31

I’m not mad at you, but as the dude on the other side of the desk, I have to decide whether you can cut it and I’m fine saying no. I could make you do some whiteboard problems, but I think whiteboard problems are pretty far removed from your day to day development and I am uncomfortable relying on them as a proxy for your ability to ship code. I don’t really disagree with your philosophy of working while you’re worki…

On the flip side? As somebody who has plenty of open source projects--the set of employers who actually looks at them is within epsilon of zero. I have not once, not once gotten a meaningful question from anything I have posted on Github in any interview or client meeting even after suggesting up-front that it's worth taking a look. And I used to interview on a monthly basis just to keep in practice! No--instead you…

Hiring manager here who reads Github profiles -- it just occurred to me that I've almost never actually mentioned it to the interviewee. It's flavoured the conversation for sure (except for the bootcamp grads who all have identical Githubs) but I tend to talk more about your process than the actual code.

Re: I have no side code projects to show you

#219
This reads like someone who is upset over getting rejected, and has to justify it by mentioning how they jog for many miles, and do art for hours in the evenings.

Yes, very good for you. But let me tell you, I have many very impressive (and large) side projects, and I also do art in the evenings for hours. I've also created entire albums of music. I've written novels.

It's not a matter of "doing other things", or "having a life", but it really is a reflection of how passionate you are about a field, and probably your time management skills. Instead of making excuses for having an empty Github, how about you discipline yourself, if you want to be competent in software development.

Re: I have no side code projects to show you

#220
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the flip side? As somebody who has plenty of open source projects--the set of employers who actually looks at them is within epsilon of zero. I have not once, not once gotten a meaningful question from anything I have posted on Github in any interview or client meeting even after suggesting up-front that it's worth taking a look. And I used to interview on a monthly basis just to keep in practice! No--instead you…

Hiring manager here who reads Github profiles -- it just occurred to me that I've almost never actually mentioned it to the interviewee. It's flavoured the conversation for sure (except for the bootcamp grads who all have identical Githubs) but I tend to talk more about your process than the actual code.

When I've had time to prepare, I've taken the time to review candidates' GitHub repositories, and it has surely helped to really understand what "open source experience" means vs "coding camp attendee". It's fun to ask about a particular class or set of files and ask the candidate to teach me something about the project. It shows we care, and also helps me tease apart a candidate's communication abilities.
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