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The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

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Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#61

Post by sliverstorm »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #45

This is a complicated topic. I used to own the lower part of a mountain valley (out west but not in Montana). There were two dirt "roads" into the valley, both immediately against the titled property; the rest of the valley was Federal (BLM) land encircled by mountains that were effectively impassable. Americans generally have a right to use and temporarily occupy these Federal lands without permission, so if I put u…

I am sympathetic to these problems. Do you think spot fixes could resolve it for good, e.g. sharing road maintenance with the Feds, or does a larger paradigm shift come to mind?

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#62

Post by stevenwoo »

googlryas wrote: post #29
njarboe wrote: post #22

As a research geologist, working in the western US has generally been great because of so much easy access to a large amount of public land. But, over the last 5 years or so, I have noticed more ranchers gating off roads going through their land. This is especially annoying when they have a small in-holding in a national forest or BLM land and the road that has been used for over 100 years is now blocked. Most times…

Should it be illegal to put up 'no trespassing' signs when there is clearly a longstanding public easement?

Something being blatantly illegal never stopped anybody from taking from the public easement. There's a pretty infamous little county road that the locals stole near Silicon Valley.

http://blog.sfgate.com/bicycle/2016/03/22/road-thieves-of-th...

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#63

Post by barsonme »

davidw wrote: post #51
barsonme wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a few different ways we're approaching this. In no particular order we: 1) Work with college republicans to introduce them to environmentalism. We saw lots of success here during National Clean Energy Week where we held events and had 20 CR chairs sign on to our clean energy pledge ( https://www.acc.eco/cr-clean-energy-coalition ) and we have 25 pilot campuses we're partnering with. We hope to more than doubl…

> 4) Work with city and county county officials to assist with their environmental policy. (This one has been my favorite to watch take off.) This one is so ripe for bipartisanship: https://www.brookings.edu/research/reforming-land-use-regula...

It's been so awesome to local politicians from across the political spectrum message us and say, "Hey, what we're doing isn't working, do you have advice?"

People are so much more invested in their own community and open to tangible solutions.

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#64

Post by wavefunction »

sliverstorm wrote: post #55
wavefunction wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You get some rich people from somewhere else who move in and throw all local culture and tradition away. It's happening in Colorado. Every Fourteener (14,000+ foot mountains) used to be publicly accessible but we got some greedy folks who moved in and shut down that traditional access to at least five of them so far. If I ever come into a sizable fortune my plan is to acquire these lands and turn them over to the pub…

I share your dream plan, but with the public lands transfer movement fear the Fed would one day soon turn around and sell the bequeathment for a song. It might not happen today or this decade, but public lands are not immutable. So then I wonder if the best option is to set up some kind of management trust.

You're probably right considering that clown Zinke, who wasn't even born in Montana and doesn't appear to appreciate the real sentiments of many in the American West.

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#65

Post by takk309 »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #54
takk309 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole "locals only" thing is just as bad. How do you communicate to the locals what is okay and what is not? How do you define locals? Is it just those that live on the same road, those that you run into at the store? It has to be all or nothing. That is really what sucks with the whole situation.

Yes, it does suck. You are taking "locals" a bit too literally. It is just a social convention and these are small communities, it is generally understood that unless the property owner has socialized something different, those signs are for mining companies, yahoos from the city, etc. A lot of times if you are not from the area, you can often ask one of the local people the purpose of a sign in some area based on wh…

I grew up in a small rural area and learned very early that a no trespassing sign means that it is likely to get a warning shot sent your way if cross the line. The signs were not up to just discourage non-locals. I am sure some areas are different but that is my experience in Montana.

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#66

Post by jandrewrogers »

googlryas wrote: post #29
njarboe wrote: post #22

As a research geologist, working in the western US has generally been great because of so much easy access to a large amount of public land. But, over the last 5 years or so, I have noticed more ranchers gating off roads going through their land. This is especially annoying when they have a small in-holding in a national forest or BLM land and the road that has been used for over 100 years is now blocked. Most times…

Should it be illegal to put up 'no trespassing' signs when there is clearly a longstanding public easement?

Some of these are intentionally deemed "not easements" by the government because it would make them responsible for maintenance.

I once called the Bureau of Land Management about repairing a dirt roads they liked to use that crossed private land. They made it crystal clear that it was an "abandoned mining trail" and not actually a road or easement, which in their mind relieved them of any obligation.

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#67

Post by StudentStuff »

schmichael wrote: post #38
hellogoodbyeeee wrote: post #3

I feel pretty passionately about protecting national land. Are there any recommendations on how to best support it? I don't live near any federal lands and I'm generally don't trust lobbyist groups. Should I be donating to the Sierra Club? Or are there other alternatives?

There are lots of groups specific to regions and activities, so a bit of searching about specific activities/places you enjoy should yield some good organizations. For example https://www.accessfund.org/ does a great job of representing rock climbers. https://gorgefriends.org/ are a group representing the Columbia River Gorge along the Oregon/Washington border.

The "Friends of the Gorge" are no friend you'd want. Every interaction I had with them was NIMBY, how dare you not smother the small towns along the gorge to death BS. Most of 'em would see to it that the Gorge goes back to having no wind mills, roads or dams unless its directly used by them for wind surfing or skiing.

Bunch of rich, elitist assholes who've come in from Portland and Seattle to fuck up the Gorge IMO.

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#68

Post by takk309 »

ewhanley wrote: post #59
typeformer wrote: post #40

I grew up in Livingston MT just a 20 min drive from the Crazies, I know these trails, and this is one if the saddest things I have ever read on HN. Now I live on the West coast but I miss Montana all the time and visit whenever I can. To be honest, I really can't fathom how terrible things have gotten politically with the likes of the despicably corrupt Zinke and Gioforte. Personally, I watched everything change so f…

I grew up in central Montana but now live on the west coast too, and I’m astonished at how quickly it’s changing. The bellwether for me is the fact that stream access law* is being challenged (most notably by Gianforte and other wealthy, often absentee landowners). If public stream access is lost, I’ll know the state and it’s civic makeup has changed irreversibly. *Everything below the high water mark is publicly acc…

Gianforte is the best example of wealthy land owners blocking access. He came from out of state, got luck with his tech company when Oracle came knocking, and now he wants to pretend he is the embodiment of Montana. All the while he is more than happy to block access to others whenever he can.

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#69

Post by [deleted] »

davidw wrote: post #18
barsonme wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other than using the federal lands more _and_ contacting your representatives (via phone!!) to express your support for keeping public federal lands, yes, donate. While your money probably won't be ill-spent with your run-of-the-mill environmental groups, I'd really recommend searching out right-leaning groups that support public federal lands, like the American Conservation Coalition ( https://acc.eco ). Sadly, the…

Interesting. What kinds of things has your group accomplished? I'm not a conservative, but the Sierra Club will never see a dime from me until they lay off mountain bikers. It seems so stupid to antagonize a group that could share about 99% of what they want to accomplish.

[deleted]

Re: The fight over preserving public land takes a twist in Montana’s mountains

#70

Post by jandrewrogers »

takk309 wrote: post #65
jandrewrogers wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it does suck. You are taking "locals" a bit too literally. It is just a social convention and these are small communities, it is generally understood that unless the property owner has socialized something different, those signs are for mining companies, yahoos from the city, etc. A lot of times if you are not from the area, you can often ask one of the local people the purpose of a sign in some area based on wh…

I grew up in a small rural area and learned very early that a no trespassing sign means that it is likely to get a warning shot sent your way if cross the line. The signs were not up to just discourage non-locals. I am sure some areas are different but that is my experience in Montana.

That's a fair point. There are some areas where "no trespassing" applies to everyone. A good example of this is in the Nevada gold fields. If you don't respect those signs, you'll be staring at the business end of a gun.

But again, if you talk to one of the locals they will tell you that. I always made a point of doing that, most people don't.

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