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I have no side code projects to show you

codementor.io

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Re: I have no side code projects to show you

#151
post #42
post #31

I’m not mad at you, but as the dude on the other side of the desk, I have to decide whether you can cut it and I’m fine saying no. I could make you do some whiteboard problems, but I think whiteboard problems are pretty far removed from your day to day development and I am uncomfortable relying on them as a proxy for your ability to ship code. I don’t really disagree with your philosophy of working while you’re worki…

On the flip side? As somebody who has plenty of open source projects--the set of employers who actually looks at them is within epsilon of zero. I have not once, not once gotten a meaningful question from anything I have posted on Github in any interview or client meeting even after suggesting up-front that it's worth taking a look. And I used to interview on a monthly basis just to keep in practice! No--instead you…

This. Not once has a potential employer ever said to me: "Based on your Github, you can obviously fizzbuzz with the best of them, and know a for-loop from an if-statement. Let's skip the phone screen/homework assignment and get you onsite directly."

Re: I have no side code projects to show you

#152
post #31

I’m not mad at you, but as the dude on the other side of the desk, I have to decide whether you can cut it and I’m fine saying no. I could make you do some whiteboard problems, but I think whiteboard problems are pretty far removed from your day to day development and I am uncomfortable relying on them as a proxy for your ability to ship code. I don’t really disagree with your philosophy of working while you’re worki…

Dude as a Dude who knows a little about employment law all your work code belongs to your employer.

Yep. I've built quite a few useful shell scripts over the years for various employer tasks or demands. Only one of those have I taken with me, which was a quick 5-minute job to figure out what was causing a system to crash in absence of a significant monitoring solution that could give minute-by-minute specs.

At my last gig I spent a few days writing and troubleshooting a script that would perform automated tasks for setting up servers for DBAs given their specs and demands. Easily one of my most shining examples of making bash work for me. It's back with the employer since it's their property.

Re: I have no side code projects to show you

#154
I feel conflicted about the side projects thing. Yes, you shouldn't absolutely have to have some to be considered for a job.

But on the other hand, I look at my wife (who is a special ed teacher). She makes a fraction of what I do but to keep her certificate, she has to take for credit college classes, submit them to the state, etc.

This is ostensibly to prove that she can still do what her degree says she can do.

Most other lines of professional work have some form of continuing education requirement.

And that's what I look at side projects like: some form of public effort at trying to improve your skills, show that you can do what you say, etc.

Comparatively, side projects [1] feel incredibly egalitarian. They don't care what school you went to, they don't require much in the way of cash payouts to get going. They author seems to disdain Github, but they'll give you a free account and let you push code to it.

1 - I think we'd need to collectively define what this term means. But I think of it as bit size projects that scratch a particular itch. The author likes dogs? Great spend $1 and use AWS Rekognition to do image search over a bunch of dogs. They have kids? Work with them to put together a little project you do together. You like working at the art collective - GREAT! - do an awesome online art thing.

Re: I have no side code projects to show you

#155
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can take a 10 minute look at a designer's portfolio and get reasonably accurate insight into their style and abilities. Do you think a 10 minute scan of an arbitrary GitHub account is the same? I say decidedly not.

This is what I don't get about this requirement. I guess you can quickly see if a developer uses design patterns, writes tests and how easy the code is to understand. I don't think that's necessarily mind blowing though and you could still get stuck with an individual who checks all those boxes and still sucks.

You are thinking about this in terms of one applicant. When you get 200 applications it's very useful to be able to quickly weed out people who are obviously not a fit.

Re: I have no side code projects to show you

#156
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the flip side? As somebody who has plenty of open source projects--the set of employers who actually looks at them is within epsilon of zero. I have not once, not once gotten a meaningful question from anything I have posted on Github in any interview or client meeting even after suggesting up-front that it's worth taking a look. And I used to interview on a monthly basis just to keep in practice! No--instead you…

I don't share your experience and my guess is that you're not advertising your projects enough. If you have projects that you're proud of — mention them on your website, on your Twitter's bio, on your LinkedIn profile, mention them everywhere. Even better, once per year go to a conference and talk about those projects in front of an audience, such that you can then have videos on YouTube too. We like building things…

I have put my GitHub + GitHub projects on my resume as individual items with clickable links, but very few employers (mostly nontechnical recruiters) acknowledged them.

Re: I have no side code projects to show you

#157
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're espousing a false dichotomy. The options in evaluating a candidate aren't merely "give them whiteboard coding problems" or "examine their side projects". Give them a take-home assignment. Give them an in-person assignment where they have several hours to complete a smallish design-and-build task. There are a lot more options, and I'm getting tired of people claiming they don't know how to evaluate technical ca…

Giving a candidate a "take-home assignment" is actually the most disrespectful of the options listed. Unless you're an awesome company, with really cool projects and offering me a jaw dropping salary and benefits, then no, I'm not going to do free work for you. Even if you are an awesome company, people probably have to actually work for you to see that, so no, I'm not going to do free work for you. I'd rather spend…

> I'm not going to do free work for you

Our industry could follow after the restaurant industry and implement stages/trialing. You come in and work a full day. If you get the job that days pay shows up on your first paycheck, if not they send you out the door with a check.

Re: I have no side code projects to show you

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? A lot of people (if not most) treat their non-work GitHub as a place to host random experiments and projects. Unless one plans to publish projects for others to use, no one should be forced to have perfect code for a one off idea if they don't want to. There are a lot of great engineers with empty or "bad" Github profiles.

When I look at a developer's Github profile I know that: 1. They care enough to have a Github profile 2. I can see their actual interests. 3. I know they're interested in random experiments 4. I can see if and how they treat their projects. Are they dedicated maintainers, or do they just fire off one-shot projects without ever deciding to maintain them? And a whole lot more. A person who maintains a single shell scri…

That's fair, thanks for explaining. To me it's fine to treat it as a huge bonus if the engineer can maintain a long lasting project with diligence.

I just know a lot of people find side projects fun because they can let loose a bit and try out random stuff that may not be their "best" code.

Re: I have no side code projects to show you

#159
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In traditional engineering disciplines like civil engineering, organizing bodies and licensure communicate competency, applicability, and ethical awareness. Software development has no industry-wide equivalent. There are small certifications for Cisco et al but for the general practice there's no standard.

This is true, and I regard that as a reflection of the immaturity of this industry.

I hear this a lot but I think it's deeper than that, such that letting the industry age isn't going to lead to the same end. The issue is the very one that is in this thread: programming is at a weird intersection between art, science, math, and engineering. Credentials and licensing matter a lot less than simple output. You can gain a ton of experience in the field even if you're stranded on an island with no internet and just a solar powered laptop capable of executing new code. Even without a computer you can still work like a mathematician and propose problems, even creative problems with no engineering applications, and then solve by coming up with and writing down algorithms for a computer you don't have. You can imagine arbitrary business details that get in the way of a clean program and force you to start thinking in architecture and system design.

Demanding a portfolio isn't a great hiring strategy simply because a lot of people's best work isn't out in the open. Who would demand a portfolio from someone like Mike Acton? It'd be enough to know what he's worked on and talk to him. And at the same time requiring a licensing proxy is no help either, he never went to college AFAIK and that'd probably be a minimum requirement for most actual licensing proposals.

Re: I have no side code projects to show you

#160

It's funny that the tech industry is so insistent on side projects. I mean - would you hire a marketing person based on their 'side projects' or a corporate lawyer purely based on their pro-bono work? Likewise, who on earth asks a building contractor if they have any side projects? You would ask for references or find a contractor via someone you know. What about recruiters themselves? How does one judge if a person…

Asking for side projects is essentially saying that you think the resume is a pack of lies from back to front.

My work is my work, and my play is my play, and I question the wisdom of judging the play in the decision to hire someone to work for you. Even when I do code at home, away from the office, I do it differently. It might be in a different language, for a different target platform, for instance. I might write more automated tests, because I can't hand it off to a tester that isn't also me. I might write something with a command-line console interface instead of a GUI, because my user base is probably just me, and I know that person is not a helpless idiot who can't read a man page--a man page that I probably will never write in the first place.

Real work is reading the crap code written by your predecessor, understanding it just enough to change something without breaking everything else, and moving on to the next thing as quickly as possible. No interview has ever tested my ability to read existing code or to alter existing code for a specific goal.

Whiteboard this: "This third-party data grid inexplicably causes all text typed into this column to come out backwards. You have 60 minutes to fix the problem, because code freeze is in four days, test needs at least a week to bang on a release candidate build, we ship at the end of the month, and you have 15 more equally-stupid issues waiting for you." And then you are judged on the quality of your horrendous kludge. Those companies that look for perfect people that write perfect code at work, then go home and keep doing it, are living in Cloudcuckooland.

Right now, my side project is getting the last two achievements in Fallout 4. After that, it will be banging out an entire novel in November. Or maybe it will be making furniture to hold DVDs, with a built-in system to deliver a painful shock whenever someone puts them back out of the correct order (which is sorted first by genre, then alphabetical by series name or title). Or maybe it will be working out a plan to terraform Venus using wormholes. When I leave work, I do whatever I want. I don't want to endlessly prep for an unending parade of stupid tech interviews.

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