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An Open Letter to Patreon

openlettertopatreon.com

191–200 of 245 posts

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#191
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a moral downside to porn. There's plenty that is uploaded without the person's consent (sometimes by a bitter ex). There's also a lot of stories out there of people being coerced and made uncomfortable to continue filming when they didn't want to. I imagine this is the minority, but there's definitely issues within the porn industry.

> There's plenty that is uploaded without the person's consent (sometimes by a bitter ex)... That is not pornography but a crime.

The issue is that it's extremely hard to discern between both.

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#192
> As journalist Violet Blue noted, “We are barred from Facebook, Instagram, Paypal, MailChimp, WordPress.org, Squarespace, Square, Kickstarter, Chase, Snapchat, AdWords.. Add that Tumblr and other sites make us unfindable.”

Which is how Congress and various AG want it. There's a two pronged attack which is designed to appeal to a small, vocal, minority:

- Banks and credit card companies get threatened with some regulation (limitation on interest rates or fees, for example). They negotiate and say "how about we crack down on those damned pornographers / terrorists/other out group and you leave us alone?"

- Newspapers, web sites, etc get threatened with some regulation (profits, speech, loss of section 230 protection for example). They negotiate and say "how about we crack down on those damned pornographers / terrorists/other out group and you leave us alone?"

And while this sounds like tit-for-tat, the level of threat even a large company like Facebook faces is existential. Look at what happened to Qwest CEO Joe Nacchio (in his case it wasn't a so-called "morals" issue: he refused to allow his company to participate in a government illegal surveillance scheme and was sent to jail on trumped-up charges).

This works very well for all concerned: Congress/AG can rely on the votes and quiet of small block the so-called "moral" extremists; companies can continue to exist and a different, not quite as small block of typically underprivileged people gets screwed.

Oh yeah, not so good for that last group. This all sounds cynical, but you can see from the real world that it's not: By going after these so-called "moral" cases, we make things a lot worse:

- those who really are being exploited are hard to find (police used to use Backpage to find human trafficking -- oops, sorry no more)

- Those who are not being exploitative are shut out by regulation, which is economically and socially destructive to providers, consumers and the rest of the community.

As with the "war on drugs", there is no effort to address actual problems; it's use of the taxpayer's dollar to secure votes.

(AG = Attornies General)

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#193
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That name can't be serious but a trolling attempt?

Go to the site and have a look at "Featured Creators": Stormfront, Daily Stormer and Richard Spencer will be recognizable to anyone these days. Most of the rest (like Andrew Auernheimer aka Weev) are recognizable to the more online of us. Should make the name and the trollish nature of the name make more sense to know that. It isn't not serious. It was invite only at the beginning, marketed as the place for the alt-r…

"Free Speech" has become in the current vernacular as merely being right wing hate speech.

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#194
post #191
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's plenty that is uploaded without the person's consent (sometimes by a bitter ex)... That is not pornography but a crime.

The issue is that it's extremely hard to discern between both.

Not at all difficult, really. It is only difficult in the sense that it is difficult to tell the difference between a snake and an elephant if all you can do is feel its tail. If you actually know what is happening then the distinction is obvious.

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#195
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you not be "literally scared" for your life when faced with the prospect of becoming homeless? I would be. Why is it a "tearjerker speech" if that is your situation and if you want that situation to be taken into account as they do? If you think they're lying say so. Calling this a "tearjerker speech" strikes me as dishonest.

> Why is it a "tearjerker speech" if that is your situation and if you want that situation to be taken into account as they do? It's "tearjerker" because it conforms to the definition of tearjerker: "A highly sentimental story, drama, or performance, often intended to arouse heartache or sympathy." [1] They blame Patreon for their vulnerability and use pity to win an argument. Fact is, they placed all their eggs in o…

>They blame Patreon for their vulnerability and use pity to win an argument. Fact is, they placed all their eggs in one risky basket, and now that basket is gone. They have themselves to blame.

What other basket is there? I thought that's the whole point of this letter, that patreon has become their lifeline but now even that is clipped.

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#196
Another day, another technology that gained momentum thanks to adult content abandoning that high risk/high cost demographic for less turbulent waters .

While I can strongly empathize with the stress and fear of losing one's income, especially if one has gone down a precarious career route like adult entertainment, the naïvete the authors demonstrate when talking about their own industry is disturbing. Completely explaining away all the difficulties of having a non insignificant portion of your business be driven by adult content as "discrimination" shows a shocking lack of knowledge of how hard it is to actually run a business with adult content... extraordinarily expensive lawyers, exorbitant cc fees, expensive banking if you can even get it, time consuming CYA reviews of material that almost always have to be done by an expensive human, etc. etc. Not only do these content creators get all of this for free, but they're subsidized by all of the non adult content on Patreon as well! It was only a matter of time before the gravy train ended, and not foreseeing/expecting this to happen makes me think these people should not be running their own businesses, much less businesses with such a extremely high risk profile.

All that said, seems like a business opportunity to start catering to this demographic and providing all of the above. You probably won't be able to compete with Patreon's white washed image or cache, and you'll definitely be more expensive, but your content creators will be able to count on a steady income. Or at least steady when compared to the rest of the adult industry.

Then again, if you want all of this pain but with none of the social stigma they can always get into bitcoin.

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#197
post #95
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how do legitimate porn sites collect money? It's a multi-billion industry, I'm sure they've solved this problem somehow.

According to Wikipedia, many of them accept bitcoins, wire transfers, etc. Obviously, that is a significant hurdle that isn't required for other businesses. A similar issue existed a few years back with a major German retailer, which sold cuban cigars — and MasterCard, VISA and PayPal closed their accounts over it, but luckily in Germany wire transfers, direct debit and Europay cards are common enough that they had a…

This is a case where a little first-hand investigation might prove more fruitful :)

For example, Ersties.com, a site made by a German woman and owned by a Swiss company, accepts Paypal and Credit Cards.

Abbywinters, which I believe is currently Dutch, also accepts credit cards, as does GirlsOutWest.

Granted, this is not a big sample, just three whose content I happen to like, but it shows that it's hardly an impossibility.

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#198

Another day, another technology that gained momentum thanks to adult content abandoning that high risk/high cost demographic for less turbulent waters . While I can strongly empathize with the stress and fear of losing one's income, especially if one has gone down a precarious career route like adult entertainment, the naïvete the authors demonstrate when talking about their own industry is disturbing. Completely exp…

> Another day, another technology that gained momentum thanks to adult content abandoning that high risk/high cost demographic for less turbulent waters .

Wut? I heard patreon via Crash Course, and the Greens are among the founders, AFAIK. The main guy being a musician. It's only today that I know of an adult community trying to make use of the service.

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#199
post #10
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And why is the payment processor doing that? Because they're afraid of the government. Why? Because the government doesn't like boobies. Why? Puritanism...

I said why in the sentence before the one you ran off with. Because they get higher than usual chargebacks. This is due to the "I shouldn't have spent money on that" feeling when the user is done with the service. You'll also have fraudulent cards because there's no physical location they need to order things to to test that the card works. Probably an aspect of underaged users using parents cards due to the nature o…

> This is due to the "I shouldn't have spent money on that" feeling when the user is done with the service.

Nah, due to the nature of the purchase, it's almost entirely about what happens when the monthly statement arrives and the wife gets a hold of it before you do.

"No, honey, I don't know anything about those charges on the credit card statement. Someone must have stolen our card information."

It also doesn't help that historically all those "age verification via credit card" routines inevitably enroll users in opt-out autobilling for services they legitimately don't want and end up disputing. The industry brought this on themselves.

Re: An Open Letter to Patreon

#200
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a moral downside to porn. There's plenty that is uploaded without the person's consent (sometimes by a bitter ex). There's also a lot of stories out there of people being coerced and made uncomfortable to continue filming when they didn't want to. I imagine this is the minority, but there's definitely issues within the porn industry.

If being uncomfortable while working was to be made illegal, there'd be few minimum-wage jobs left. From burger-flipping to call centers, people do it because they have to, not because they want to. Coercion is a different kettle of fish, but being uncomfortable at your work is a pretty normal state of being.

We're talking about morality, not laws.
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