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U.S. Consumer Bureau Loses Fight to Allow More Class-Action Suits

nytimes.com

161–170 of 249 posts

Re: U.S. Consumer Bureau Loses Fight to Allow More Class-Action Suits

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In America, “one person, one vote” only arose in the 1960s. The Constitution was framed with suffrage for only land-owning white men. > That's not how it should work, right? That’s a big question. I don’t think it’s safe to presume it’s answer.

...what? You think a society where some votes count more than others is better? That seems to only be possible if you presume that you/people-who-think-like-you-do would be the ones with more votes.

>...what? You think a society where some votes count more than others is better? That seems to only be possible if you presume that you/people-who-think-like-you-do would be the ones with more votes.

I'm sure if we gave felons a vote that counted as 1/2 a non-felon plenty of them would vote.

I think a system where your vote starts at 3/4 value in state elections and increases to 1 after you've been a resident for 10yr. Weighting the opinion of a newcomer less is pretty standard in pretty much every group decision other than voting.

Re: U.S. Consumer Bureau Loses Fight to Allow More Class-Action Suits

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no way to have meaningful freedoms of speech, assembly, and petition while the government decides what counts as "fair" speech, assembly, and petition. Lobbying is literally talking to people in power. It involves money because advertising and marketing aren't free. A special interest group is literally a group of people who want to talk about a particular set of issues. So to return a question, what are some…

I read about an interesting proposal, it goes like this: American law has a distinction for items you can own but not buy or sell, for example a kidney. You can have a kidney, you just can't sell it and if you're lacking one, you just can't buy it. Similarly, lobbying should be classified like kidneys. You or I or anyone else has the ability to talk to our congressperson or assemble outside their office or petition t…

So the people who are the most articulate, beautiful, connected, and who have the free time will be successful lobbying for their own interests, but won't be able to rent out their time to lobby for others.

Re: U.S. Consumer Bureau Loses Fight to Allow More Class-Action Suits

#163
post #114
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was offered over $1000 off to 'just sign the damned contract', but still ended up walking. I was fortunate to find a different dealer that didn't have an arbitration clause, though. I fear I wouldn't find that next time around, and was really hanging my hopes upon legislation like this.

I'm going to ask what might be a dumb question, because I don't know any better. But is there any statistical evidence that arbitration results in worse outcomes for the consumer, or is all the hate theoretical for now? People on HN and otherwise speak about arbitration like it's an auto-loss for the consumer, but it's not like our court systems are guaranteed to be much fairer. EDIT: It looks like the bottom of the…

Did the study compare those outcomes to outcomes when taken to trial?

Re: U.S. Consumer Bureau Loses Fight to Allow More Class-Action Suits

#164
post #44
post #4

Pure speculation ahead: Suppose for a moment that the Equifax hack was carried out by a nation-state (like, say, North Korea). This is not an issue of consumer trust and safety. It is an issue of national (US) security and safety. To give another analogy, imagine that in 1920, the Canadian military marched over the border and robbed some banks. Does it make sense for the patrons of that bank to be able to sue the ban…

> imagine that in 1920, the Canadian military marched over the border and robbed some banks The international law on this is rather complicated but I believe that those affected would have a case against the Canadian government, as well as being covered by the US bank insurance system. However, in the case of Equifax, personal data isn't the property of the person (in the US system) and so you don't have a case. You'…

Which is why military operations are conducted as an extension of policy, not as an isolated show of force.

It would be the mounties robbing the banks and then threatening to return with greater force if we show any attempt to recoup losses from canada, but then we steal their lumberjacks, then they strike out alaskan oil sites, oh boy are we at war?

National security advisors have long indicated civilian infrastructure to be the primary cyber vulnerability, not military assets. Its the german ballbearing factory all over again.

So to not hold these companies liable is genuinely generating a national security threat, where threat is defined as a risk with a real probability of being realized.

Re: U.S. Consumer Bureau Loses Fight to Allow More Class-Action Suits

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no way to have meaningful freedoms of speech, assembly, and petition while the government decides what counts as "fair" speech, assembly, and petition. Lobbying is literally talking to people in power. It involves money because advertising and marketing aren't free. A special interest group is literally a group of people who want to talk about a particular set of issues. So to return a question, what are some…

I read about an interesting proposal, it goes like this: American law has a distinction for items you can own but not buy or sell, for example a kidney. You can have a kidney, you just can't sell it and if you're lacking one, you just can't buy it. Similarly, lobbying should be classified like kidneys. You or I or anyone else has the ability to talk to our congressperson or assemble outside their office or petition t…

That would bias the process in favor of rich people who can afford to spend a week hanging out in DC meeting with members of Congress.

It would do the most harm to interests that pool resources from large groups of regular folks, like unions or environmental groups.

Re: U.S. Consumer Bureau Loses Fight to Allow More Class-Action Suits

#166

I'm losing faith in our system of government. Citibank did this to me on a credit card I had with them: 1. I stopped using the card for several months. 2. I then used it once on a small purchase. 3. They stopped sending me an e-mail reminders for my bill. (An "error" in their system disabled e-mails for my account specifically) 4. I racked up about $100 in late fees and interest charges. 5. I called them up and they…

How would this situation qualify for a class action? You don't seem to be a member of some large class of people to me.

Re: U.S. Consumer Bureau Loses Fight to Allow More Class-Action Suits

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read about an interesting proposal, it goes like this: American law has a distinction for items you can own but not buy or sell, for example a kidney. You can have a kidney, you just can't sell it and if you're lacking one, you just can't buy it. Similarly, lobbying should be classified like kidneys. You or I or anyone else has the ability to talk to our congressperson or assemble outside their office or petition t…

That would bias the process in favor of rich people who can afford to spend a week hanging out in DC meeting with members of Congress. It would do the most harm to interests that pool resources from large groups of regular folks, like unions or environmental groups.

>It would do the most harm to interests that pool resources from large groups of regular folks, like unions or environmental groups.

It harms oil lobbyists and big ag and tobacco and all those industries in exactly the same way it's going to hurt the Sierra Club. I'd still call that a win for the little guy.

>That would bias the process in favor of rich people who can afford to spend a week hanging out in DC meeting with members of Congress.

The process is already biased in favor of rich people and I don't see a reasonable way to make it not favor rich people - I'm just saying that this would favor rich people less than our current system. I prefer a system where some CEO has to actually go talk to Senators for a week than a system where a few slick-haired individuals run around the hill year round.

Re: U.S. Consumer Bureau Loses Fight to Allow More Class-Action Suits

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read about an interesting proposal, it goes like this: American law has a distinction for items you can own but not buy or sell, for example a kidney. You can have a kidney, you just can't sell it and if you're lacking one, you just can't buy it. Similarly, lobbying should be classified like kidneys. You or I or anyone else has the ability to talk to our congressperson or assemble outside their office or petition t…

So the people who are the most articulate, beautiful, connected, and who have the free time will be successful lobbying for their own interests, but won't be able to rent out their time to lobby for others.

Well it's not a total fix for our broken system - there's a lot more fixes I could list here to help remove money from the political system - publically funded elections, ranked choice voting, total PAC transparency, etc. - but it would be better than what we have now which is the people with the most $$$ being successful in lobbying for their interests.

Re: U.S. Consumer Bureau Loses Fight to Allow More Class-Action Suits

#169

A couple years ago I got a robocall. It was a recording urging me to call my Congressman and ask them to cut funding to the USCB. Specifically that, the USCB. They did not use its name, only its acronym. They claimed that it was an agency responsible for harming small business in vague terms. After hanging up, I was curious so looked up what the USCB was. I'd never heard of it previously but after reading their websi…

If someone wants to talk about something, they should at least call in person. I always hang up on robocalls.

Re: U.S. Consumer Bureau Loses Fight to Allow More Class-Action Suits

#170
It is entirely superficial to cast this fight as one between good and evil. As much as anything, it was about proper process.

Legislative, executive, judicial - those are the three branches under the Constitution that are supposed to check and balance one another.

The legislature passed the federal arbitration act almost 100 years ago. It was signed into law by the president. And it has been consistently upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court in the face of many and varied court challenges.

In essence, the result of this century-old jostling is a body of duly enacted law that says that binding arbitration clauses are truly binding and therefore can be used in contracts to foreclose judicial proceedings by requiring that disputes covered by such clauses be resolved through arbitration. Moreover, a massive court challenge resulted in a holding of the Supreme Court saying that waivers of judicial class-action rights in favor of arbitration are also binding - meaning, it is neither unjust, unfair, nor against public policy (legally speaking) to say that consumers can be required to waive such rights and be required in all cases to arbitrate their disputes.

Now, one may believe that all of this is repugnant and grossly harmful to consumers. Others may disagree and may in particular believe that class-action lawsuits are primarily vehicles that help the trial bar and do little with their nickel-discount coupons to actually further the interests of consumers. Either way, the existing law is the existing law. The proper way to change it is to gain control of the legislative and executive branches and to repeal or amend the federal arbitration act. In that way, the law could easily and properly be shaped to forbid making arbitration mandatory and binding or limit the ability to use binding clauses in specific areas of law, etc.

The problem with CFPB is that it sought to carve out its own view of what is right and proper for consumers of financial services without regard to the intent of Congress in having enacted the existing arbitration laws. As established, CFPB is not accountable to Congress or any other form of traditional oversight of its bureaucratic functions (its structure was declared unconstitutional by the D.C. court of appeals). It is in that sense an organization that could be characterized as "rogue" based on traditional rules of governance and it is certainly seen as such by those who disagree with its particular actions in using its power to attempt to regulate arbitration clauses, payday loans, etc.

So CFPB essentially stuck its thumb in the eye of Congress in pushing forward with these measures.

Now Congress has struck back, saying, in effect (with its authority under the Congressional Review Act), "we don't like what this regulation does and this is our domain - therefore, we rescind it."

So, while one can try to say this is good versus evil, it is basically the legislature asserting itself on a matter of policy against a bureaucrat who it believes overstepped his proper role.

The result is to keep the status quo, nothing more. The rules in effect as a result of this action by Congress are the same ones that have governed arbitration clauses in every walk of life in American business for nearly a century.

For those who don't like it, that is fine. The ballot box is open as the prescribed means to effect a change. All this recent action amounts to is a declaration by Congress saying that this should not happen by bureaucratic edict. That may be bad policy, or it may be good policy, but it does uphold the rules of law favoring the electorally-accountable legislative branch over the authority of an unaccountable bureau chief.

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