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If you care about diversity, don't just hire from the same five schools

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Re: If you care about diversity, don't just hire from the same five schools

#271

Post by logfromblammo »

jtmcmc wrote: post #253
logfromblammo wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't get in to MIT, but if I had, it's unlikely I would have attended, due to financial reasons. I went to a state school, and had a handful of scholarships to help me out. In retrospect, I would have been better off applying to UIUC, Purdue, or CMU, but quite a lot of the decisions I made when young would have turned out differently if I knew then what I know now.

I don't know when you applied but my understanding is that MIT http://news.mit.edu/2008/tuition-0307 this is from 2008 presumably that number has gone up (stanford is now free for families earning under 125k for instance)

It would have been around 1994 and 1995. Historic data say that my 4-year (sticker price) total would have been just a bit over $90k (equivalent to $133k in 2017 dollars) for tuition alone. I don't have the receipts, but I think my parents only had to pay about a quarter of that, including non-tuition expenses, to a markedly less prestigious school.

Re: If you care about diversity, don't just hire from the same five schools

#272

Post by eggpy »

throwaway713 wrote: post #156
dionidium wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently moved from St. Louis to New York City. The number of recruiting emails I receive has probably quadrupled (or more). In all things, it helps to be where the people you want to find you are looking. Also: protip for people in the South or Midwest who are open to relocation: change your online profiles to say you're in the new location.

As a data scientist living in the South, I have no problem relocating to San Francisco or San Jose, but how do I signal this without letting my existing employer know? Changing my LinkedIn location from to San Francisco would raise some uncomfortable questions.

Maybe it's ok to let your employer know? It's not as if the desire to relocate could be solved by your current company if all of their operations are local. I suppose it depends on your manager, but hopefully if you said "Boss, I want to move to San Francisco. The growth opportunity there is too great to ignore." they might be supportive. Obviously if you think that conversation could go very badly then you might have to be a bit more low-key. Maybe try to reach out to a recruiting firm in San Francisco instead of changing your LinkedIn.

Re: If you care about diversity, don't just hire from the same five schools

#273

Post by vilmosi »

TuringNYC wrote: post #249
vilmosi wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> Is anyone seriously arguing that Asian applicants have it easier than caucasians? Statistically speaking, don't they? Isn't that the reasoning for these "penalties"?

I imagine this is a huge can of worms, there is no one answer, and any answer I give will be a broad and imperfect generalization. That said, i'll provide my viewpoint as an Asian-American born and raised in NYC. I'm comparing to others in NYC (obviously there is the broader USA where poverty abounds and knows no color.) No, most asians of my generation did not have it easier. We rarely had an uncle at a hedge fund o…

>>> No, most asians of my generation did not have it easier

Again, statistically. On average, people of all colors don't have an uncle at a hedge fund...

>>> So to answer your question: No, we Asian-Americans dont have it easier, most of us simply overcompensated at great personal cost.

In NY... The irony...

And that's if you're anecdotes are true.

Re: If you care about diversity, don't just hire from the same five schools

#274

Post by s73ver_ »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #226
s73ver_ wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, for one, 3 schools do not the market make. For two, it means they're not making any effort to reach out to those in disadvantaged populations. It's a large problem that a lot of companies have.

The thing I'm questioning is how you could describe being proportionate to the candidate pool as "a large problem." Lack of diversity in STEM is a large problem, but your payroll matching the market doesn't seem like a large problem.

For one, the candidate pool is artificially limited. And, like I said, 3 schools does not the market make.

Re: If you care about diversity, don't just hire from the same five schools

#275

Post by samstave »

viewtransform wrote: post #225
drewg123 wrote: post #37

When I was at Google, I was asked if I wanted to make a recruiting trip to my alma mater. I was excited until I found out they were talking about my grad school where I got my MS, and not UB, a large state school where I got my BS. I told them I'd be happy to take a trip to recruit at UB. I got mostly crickets back from that reply. However, I ended up getting signed up for a series where they had a panel of a few HR…

When a recruiter contacted me for a position at Google in 2012, I happened to be also taking Daphne Koller's Coursera class on Probabilistic Graphical Models (PGM). I was puzzled why the recruiter wanted to know my SAT score. He also wanted to know the college and high school I went to and my GRE score and my undergrad GPA ... Keep in mind that I have a BS, MS, Phd in three different engineering fields and over a dec…

Its like a real-life implementation of that life-score episode of Black Mirror (and what the chinese government is looking to do to their entire population.

When I first interviewed with google, it took three-freaking months of panel interviews.

Then they said I scored really well, and that I'd have an offer the next day.

I got the call the next day and said, in fact, no offer was coming. No reason given.

Then they attempted to recruit me for the same position for the next four years on three separate occasions.

I told them the story of my first experience, and then they'd say "yeah let me check..." then get back to me and say "sorry, we wont interview you for this position", again, no reason given.

Then they called me one more time, for same damn position. I told them "Ill make this simple, just give me the damn job or stop freaking calling me"

They finally stopped calling me.

Re: If you care about diversity, don't just hire from the same five schools

#276

Post by leesalminen »

drewg123 wrote: post #37

When I was at Google, I was asked if I wanted to make a recruiting trip to my alma mater. I was excited until I found out they were talking about my grad school where I got my MS, and not UB, a large state school where I got my BS. I told them I'd be happy to take a trip to recruit at UB. I got mostly crickets back from that reply. However, I ended up getting signed up for a series where they had a panel of a few HR…

Shout out to a fellow UB undergrad. Fun times and you’re right, lots of talented young folks.

Re: If you care about diversity, don't just hire from the same five schools

#277

Post by dba7dba »

rodgerd wrote: post #241
gonehome wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree - and this is even more true at state schools than the slightly more selective schools (like RPI that I went to). State schools have people that got into MIT, but didn't go for financial reasons or family reasons. Nobody at RPI got into MIT because if they did they would have gone to MIT (maybe some rare exception exists, but this is generally true). School admission is obviously not a perfect indicator of ab…

> This is even ignoring the 'diversity' angle - a lot of really great people are missed because it's hard to break in without knowing someone or having the right credentials. That is literally the diversity angle.

It is the diversity angle, considering many smart students of minority groups choose to go to public school because many come from families that cannot pay for tuition of the top 5.

Very much a diversity issue.

Re: If you care about diversity, don't just hire from the same five schools

#278

Post by TuringNYC »

vilmosi wrote: post #273
TuringNYC wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine this is a huge can of worms, there is no one answer, and any answer I give will be a broad and imperfect generalization. That said, i'll provide my viewpoint as an Asian-American born and raised in NYC. I'm comparing to others in NYC (obviously there is the broader USA where poverty abounds and knows no color.) No, most asians of my generation did not have it easier. We rarely had an uncle at a hedge fund o…

>>> No, most asians of my generation did not have it easier Again, statistically. On average, people of all colors don't have an uncle at a hedge fund... >>> So to answer your question: No, we Asian-Americans dont have it easier, most of us simply overcompensated at great personal cost. In NY... The irony... And that's if you're anecdotes are true.

>> Again, statistically. On average, people of all colors don't have an uncle at a hedge fund...

Huge numbers of people I went to undergrad with had uncles at hedge funds or big law firms. Those are the people I was competing with for entrance. You're absolutely right, I was never competing with many people in the Midwest (of all races) who had it worse than me because large populations amongst the Ivy League schools come from ~2 dozen high schools. My high school was proud to produce 71 (i think, something around that) students who proceeded into Ivy League schools from our graduating class (for whatever that is worth.) It is even more with 5 other NYC schools and a couple on Massachusetts.

Finally, You dont need to believe my anecdotes -- you can read hundreds of first-hand accounts online. When the "Tiger Mom" NY Times article and book came out, you chould see the outpouring of condemnation of some of this NY (and broader) Asian subculture -- a lot of it was from Asians like myself.

I encourage you to read the comments section of that famous article as well as the dozens of offshoot conversations and heated debate that ensued over the persoanl/emotional/psychological cost of success at any cost mentality.

Re: If you care about diversity, don't just hire from the same five schools

#279

Post by kyle-rb »

samstave wrote: post #275
viewtransform wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When a recruiter contacted me for a position at Google in 2012, I happened to be also taking Daphne Koller's Coursera class on Probabilistic Graphical Models (PGM). I was puzzled why the recruiter wanted to know my SAT score. He also wanted to know the college and high school I went to and my GRE score and my undergrad GPA ... Keep in mind that I have a BS, MS, Phd in three different engineering fields and over a dec…

Its like a real-life implementation of that life-score episode of Black Mirror (and what the chinese government is looking to do to their entire population. When I first interviewed with google, it took three-freaking months of panel interviews. Then they said I scored really well, and that I'd have an offer the next day. I got the call the next day and said, in fact, no offer was coming. No reason given. Then they a…

Sounds like callback hell :)

Re: If you care about diversity, don't just hire from the same five schools

#280

Post by dragonwriter »

dba7dba wrote: post #277
rodgerd wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is even ignoring the 'diversity' angle - a lot of really great people are missed because it's hard to break in without knowing someone or having the right credentials. That is literally the diversity angle.

It is the diversity angle, considering many smart students of minority groups choose to go to public school because many come from families that cannot pay for tuition of the top 5. Very much a diversity issue.

Top 5 universities (and elite private schools more generally) are usually much cheaper than public universities for students with limited means because they have deep pockets for need-based financial aid while public schools have little if any additional campus aid.

Now, awareness of this fact may be not widespread enough, skewing the applicant pool toward the outcome.you describe because of perceived cost, but it's much more likely that a student wouldn't be able to afford a public college than an elite private one.

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