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Patterns of Death in the South Still Show the Outlines of Slavery

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Re: Patterns of Death in the South Still Show the Outlines of Slavery

#31
post #24

Ive always taken an unpopular view about slavery. "We never quit doing slavery." It is true the Constitution was amended after the Civil war to include banning of slavery in most circumstances. However, slavery is explicitly still allowed as a "punishment for a crime". Instead of "Black = Slave", it's "Black = criminal , criminal = slave". After all, it only takes only 6-12 angry white men to find you guilty. I would…

Not sure why you're being downvoted (+1 from me) but this is essentially the basis of the Netflix documentary 13th [1]. The thesis is that slavery was replaced by excessive incarceration of African Americans, which were then used as cheap or free labour... much like slaves were. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_(film)

> which were then used as cheap or free labour... much like slaves were.

Are prisons really profitable though? Do they produce anything of real value from this free labor ?

Re: Patterns of Death in the South Still Show the Outlines of Slavery

#32
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why you're being downvoted (+1 from me) but this is essentially the basis of the Netflix documentary 13th [1]. The thesis is that slavery was replaced by excessive incarceration of African Americans, which were then used as cheap or free labour... much like slaves were. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_(film)

It's being downvoted because it's pushing a false narrative that it's only black people that are being incarcerated, and they're being incarcerated explicitly for cheap labor. There are major issues with regards to race in America, but real life is more nuanced than "it's happening because racism."

Would "racism is a statistically significant contributing factor" be more palatable for you than "it's happening because racism"?

Re: Patterns of Death in the South Still Show the Outlines of Slavery

#33
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why you're being downvoted (+1 from me) but this is essentially the basis of the Netflix documentary 13th [1]. The thesis is that slavery was replaced by excessive incarceration of African Americans, which were then used as cheap or free labour... much like slaves were. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_(film)

It's being downvoted because it's pushing a false narrative that it's only black people that are being incarcerated, and they're being incarcerated explicitly for cheap labor. There are major issues with regards to race in America, but real life is more nuanced than "it's happening because racism."

> It's being downvoted because it's pushing a false narrative that it's only black people that are being incarcerated,

Nobody is saying "only" black people are being incarcerated. They're saying that incarceration is used as a tool to perpetuate many of the same outcomes as slavery. Which is trivially verifiable, if you look at the respective incarceration rates by race.

> they're being incarcerated explicitly for cheap labor

Virtually all prisoners are required to work for what amounts to as little as $.10/hour. $1/hour is considered an incredibly good wage for a prison job. Prisoners are, by design, excluded from minimum wage laws. This is not limited to private prisons; it includes inmates at state-run and federal prisons too.

In California, about a third of the people fighting the recent and ongoing wildfires are prisoners, generally making about $1/hour or less. The maximum they can make is $2.56. Again, this burden largely falls on black and other non-white people, because they're incarcerated at much higher rates and for much longer sentences for the same crimes.

Re: Patterns of Death in the South Still Show the Outlines of Slavery

#34

Almost the only people doing well in rural America are those with generational wealth. I know plenty of people from my small hometown that have been doing okay with their farms. One of them has a gravel business. Those without such luck are either moving to a bigger city or experiencing a declining quality of life, and they're coping with drugs, meth mostly. I can't imagine what that would be like in areas that haven…

Personally I think the current socioeconomic trends are firmly against small towns and they're all dying and this will continue until something drastic changes.

For one, family farms have largely been replaced by agribusiness, which tends to be far more economical.

For another, employment and home ownership trends are bad for small towns. Employment is now more short-term. There are hardly any "jobs for life" now. This makes those with limited employment prospects (in that there are few employers in their area) particularly vulnerable to change. Home ownership makes the labour market as a whole less flexible/mobile.

The solution to these problems is urbanization.

What's more, the suburbs formed in WW2 with the explosion in private vehicle ownership and, for some reason, governments actively subsidized it. People will often declare (here and elsewhere) that they like to live in the suburbs. It's cheaper, the lots and houses are larger and so on. Thing is, no one is paying the true cost of this in terms of all the infrastructure to support it, be it roads, railways, utilities, schools, hospitals and so on.

If you look at the major urban centers, they tend to generate a surplus and that surplus is used to subsidize those that live outside that city. It's true in NYC. It's true in London.

At some point I expect this to end, which will strengthen the trend towards urbanization.

One problem is that construction pretty much everywhere is becoming unaffordable. This applies to housing and infrastructure. Homeowners get excited about their rising property values but that's pretty short term thinking. There was an article posted here last week about how all the cheap eats are disappearing from SF. Well, real estate costs (land + construction) are an input into literally everything. You simply can't have cheap services in an area with expensive real estate in the long term.

Construction costs are a real problem eg [1]. Australia, which once had a great standard of living, is now ridiculously expensive in local times. Honestly, it's like the whole country is Vancouver. IIRC the median house price in Sydney is now A$1.1m (up from ~$650k ~7 years ago).

[1]: https://www.citylab.com/equity/2017/04/why-is-affordable-hou...

Re: Patterns of Death in the South Still Show the Outlines of Slavery

#35
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true and is hardly limited to the Old South. Rural Upstate New York is effectively in the same boat. Frankly I think trying to develop rural America to be economically competitive to urban America is a bad idea wrapped in the cloak of a well-meaning idea. Infrastructure and services and much (like 2-5x) more expensive over a wide area. And you need a LOT of infrastrucute to reasonably support a professional c…

The one thing America has is a high rural population compared to say Canada. Moving more people into cities is a bad approach we need to spread people around the country and raise up small towns instead leaving them.

> Moving more people into cities is a bad approach we need to spread people around the country and raise up small towns instead leaving them.

Why? City-dwelling is, broadly, much cheaper (in terms of infrastructure and services) and more environmentally friendly than other arrangements.

Re: Patterns of Death in the South Still Show the Outlines of Slavery

#36
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why you're being downvoted (+1 from me) but this is essentially the basis of the Netflix documentary 13th [1]. The thesis is that slavery was replaced by excessive incarceration of African Americans, which were then used as cheap or free labour... much like slaves were. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_(film)

It's being downvoted because it's pushing a false narrative that it's only black people that are being incarcerated, and they're being incarcerated explicitly for cheap labor. There are major issues with regards to race in America, but real life is more nuanced than "it's happening because racism."

Waitsec. So, because I didn't write a dissertation on this topic, nor did I write a longform article, it's invalid? Hardly.

It's not hard to look up that google maps census dot map. And then go find prisons in Google Maps and find it on the census map. Might be pretty surprising what you see... then again, might not.

Hint: https://demographics.virginia.edu/DotMap/ Turn overlays. Go to Indianapolis, then look to the West side towards Avon and Danville. There's a dense green block (green dots = Black people) due south of Avon. Now, go look in Google Maps as to what's there.

Wash, rinse and repeat all across the US. You want evidence? There's pretty telling evidence right there.

Hell, I would go over the comment limit on even an abstract on this topic. We're talking 300+ years of history just in the US and colonies.

No, the real reason here why I'm being downvoted is because of a popularity contest. It certainly doesn't have to do with content, at least here. But some people are considered "unpopular". So we see rapid point swings and -1's. To me, its just some of the backward-ness how this community works. Every community has something like this. Grain/block of salt, and all.

Re: Patterns of Death in the South Still Show the Outlines of Slavery

#37

Ive always taken an unpopular view about slavery. "We never quit doing slavery." It is true the Constitution was amended after the Civil war to include banning of slavery in most circumstances. However, slavery is explicitly still allowed as a "punishment for a crime". Instead of "Black = Slave", it's "Black = criminal , criminal = slave". After all, it only takes only 6-12 angry white men to find you guilty. I would…

so we end the war on drugs and outlaw private prisons. Do you really believe this will satisfy BLM? Do you really believe this will solve the problems in the inner cities? Chicago? Baltimore? St. Louis? There are a LOT of fingers pointing for political reasons, yet some topics and ideas are deemed "off-limits".

Re: Patterns of Death in the South Still Show the Outlines of Slavery

#38

Ive always taken an unpopular view about slavery. "We never quit doing slavery." It is true the Constitution was amended after the Civil war to include banning of slavery in most circumstances. However, slavery is explicitly still allowed as a "punishment for a crime". Instead of "Black = Slave", it's "Black = criminal , criminal = slave". After all, it only takes only 6-12 angry white men to find you guilty. I would…

Slavery has had significant long term effects on the black community. That can't be denied. Disproportionate poverty in the black community is directly tied to slavery.

However I disagree that slavery - as the term is usually meant to mean - still exists in the form of incarceration.

We as a society have decided that certain things are illegal. The black community, because of poverty (so because of slavery), disproportionately breaks those laws and so there is disproportionate incarceration.

Slavery is the root cause of this disproportionate incarceration, but we should not blame the fact that we have a system which punishes criminals, or equate the enforcement of laws with slavery.

Instead we should be trying to eliminate outdated laws - the illegality of marijuana for instance - and also reducing crime in the black community.

Re: Patterns of Death in the South Still Show the Outlines of Slavery

#39

Ive always taken an unpopular view about slavery. "We never quit doing slavery." It is true the Constitution was amended after the Civil war to include banning of slavery in most circumstances. However, slavery is explicitly still allowed as a "punishment for a crime". Instead of "Black = Slave", it's "Black = criminal , criminal = slave". After all, it only takes only 6-12 angry white men to find you guilty. I would…

Slavery has had significant long term effects on the black community. That can't be denied. Disproportionate poverty in the black community is directly tied to slavery. However I disagree that slavery - as the term is usually meant to mean - still exists in the form of incarceration. We as a society have decided that certain things are illegal. The black community, because of poverty (so because of slavery), dispropo…

The 13th Amendment explicitly legalises slavery as the punishment for a crime, and its used all the time.

Re: Patterns of Death in the South Still Show the Outlines of Slavery

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would remote work help? I would think encouraging or allowing more 'white-collar' workers to be more spread out throughout the country would help increase demand in places other than large cities and tech hubs. I, for one, miss rural life (wide open space, less traffic, mom and pop stores, etc.) but unfortunately my career as a programmer doesn't cater to that lifestyle all that well.

Let's say you have a reasonably well-paying remote job and you could live anywhere. Let's also say you're married and have children. Do you want them to go to good schools? Do you want them to receive quality healthcare that does not break the bank? Do you want to use convenient services like Uber/Lyft when the need arises? Do you want access to a network of professionals that can help you grow your career? If you an…

Are you serious with those questions?

I grew up on island in Alaska. Completed my last two years of high school in a small farming community in North Carolina. Joined the military and after ten years separated from southern Turkey, yet, somehow I was able to land a job as a data scientist.

I joined the military due to a lack of academic discipline though I still was accepted to the state schools in North Carolina, just choose otherwise. I have friends who did the same, though one did attend Chapel Hill on academic scholarship he received while graduating in Alaska. I have another friend who is now an anesthesiologist who graduated from University of Washington's medical school.

A few remote workers will do wonders for rural America in the short and long term. Saying you need to live in a major city to be successful is hogwash.

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