Bay Area hammered by loss of jobs: Lack of affordable housing strangles hiring • Hacker News Board

Re: Bay Area hammered by loss of jobs: Lack of affordable housing strangles hiring

#211

Post by Bartweiss » Mon, Oct 23, 2017, 5:50 PM UTC

jsonne wrote: post #71

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They'll go to cities like Denver and Austin and promptly get to work turning them into the only thing they know, SV.

Live in Denver. This is a little too real. There's a very real irony to the people that move here that "hate the bay" then act, vote, and do everything in their power to make it exactly like SF.

Cynically, the complaint about SF isn't that it's unacceptable, it's that it's only acceptable if you got in early and bought property. Assuming these people are buying up houses or condos in Denver, voting to make it like the Bay is a profitable move.

(More realistically, I'll be most of them just hated a few specific aspects of the Bay.)

Re: Bay Area hammered by loss of jobs: Lack of affordable housing strangles hiring

#212

Post by LeifCarrotson » Mon, Oct 23, 2017, 5:51 PM UTC

city41 wrote: post #133

xtacy wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Expanding on the comment below, it's an unfortunate combination of many prevailing issues. 1. One of the things Prop 13 does is to cap the maximum rate at which a property tax grows per annum to 2%. However, due to housing demand, the property values grow at a much faster rate (7% is not unheard of). The property tax can change when there is a sale. 2. Bay area prices have skyrocketed. 3. The peninsula topography and…

The flip side to that is without prop 13, families like this would quickly find they can no longer afford to pay the taxes on their house and are forced to leave. Which is also not a great situation.

"Forced to leave" is a bit strong, evoking images of someone thrust into debtors prison.

What would actually happen is they'd sell their house for 5x the price of the same house in a more reasonable housing market, and 10x what they paid for it, and move to a different location with a nicely multiplied bank account.

I'll acknowledge that some stability is good. But it has a cost, and that cost is currently much higher than the benefits it provides.

Re: Bay Area hammered by loss of jobs: Lack of affordable housing strangles hiring

#213

Post by bduerst » Mon, Oct 23, 2017, 5:51 PM UTC

jorblumesea wrote: post #142

cobookman wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm fairly early in my career at a company ( 80-10-10 mortgage on a 1mil home is only 100k down. And the monthly payments split by 2 people (aka a couple) is ~2k / person / month. That's 4k/month all in once you include the tax rebates.

Jesus, 2k / person a month is insane. This is what people are talking about. This is not acceptable or normal. I pay $900 / person a month for a large house in Seattle that's a 15 minute commute from downtown. Even with the bay's high salaries you're not doing very well. Throw in bills and other expenses and you're looking at ~40% of your monthly income, assuming a salary of 130k. That's ~50k per person, per year, in…

It's also hyperbole. It's closer to ~5K per month for a $1M mortgage with insurance and taxes in the bay today.

By the rule of thirds, that's $60K/yr meaning $180K+/yr salary is necessary. This is for suburban living in a remodeled 70's ranch home, not in an urban area.

Re: Bay Area hammered by loss of jobs: Lack of affordable housing strangles hiring

#214

Post by irrational » Mon, Oct 23, 2017, 5:51 PM UTC

cobookman wrote: post #109

robbrit wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A fourth category: people who have lived here for a long time, and were able to buy property back before it became unaffordable. These are typically the managers or senior employees. It makes me wonder that as the young rockstars and H1B recipients age, where will they go? They certainly can't afford to buy a house. I imagine as time goes on, companies in the Bay Area will be awash with young junior talent but will s…

I'm fairly early in my career at a company ( 80-10-10 mortgage on a 1mil home is only 100k down. And the monthly payments split by 2 people (aka a couple) is ~2k / person / month. That's 4k/month all in once you include the tax rebates.

Holy cow! I thought my $1400/month mortgage was steep, that's insane.

Re: Bay Area hammered by loss of jobs: Lack of affordable housing strangles hiring

#215

Post by salqadri » Mon, Oct 23, 2017, 5:51 PM UTC

nimbius wrote: post #16

Most of the bay area employees are divided into 3 categories from anecdotal experience: young rockstars that are willing to live in relative squalor for a chance to prove themselves, vested and moneyed elites (CEO's, presidents, VC funded overlords) who are so out of touch with the average employee its best they not show up to the office that frequently, and H1B visa recipients that endure the soul-crushing San Jose…

Another category I'd add are those employees who choose to work in the bay area so that on the side they can be part of the startup scene to find co-founders or investors as they plan on pursuing their next big idea.

Re: Bay Area hammered by loss of jobs: Lack of affordable housing strangles hiring

#216

Post by r00fus » Mon, Oct 23, 2017, 5:51 PM UTC

epistasis wrote: post #79

acangiano wrote: post #27

Why aren't tech companies buying or building massive apartment complexes, making them appealing with a few amenities, and renting them out for cheap to their employees? I know building development in San Francisco proper is limited, but in the general bay area or South is not. Now you have a very attractive package: a relatively big salary and somewhat affordable housing. Talent would be much more willing to relocate…

Local city governments have made it impossible to build large amounts of housing. The entrenched interests of current land owners do not want lots of housing in their city. From their point of view, it's only hassle. More people on the roads, things changing, etc. Also it stops their property values from rising so quickly.

Well there you nailed it on the head. There's a valid reason the NIMBYs don't want more housing: US city governments are traditionally very very poor at housing planning and companies use that as an excuse to avoid taking into account all the externalities.

I mean, you increase housing but don't increase retail units or parks in the same area, thereby creating a cultural/food desert. Even if you do, if you don't increase road capacity or install better public transit (which since it's usually at county level requires a lot of coordination), then you're simply increasing problems.

NIMBY is the simplest solution - often folks who end up in that camp have tried advocating other solutions and have failed at them because no-one wants to foot the bill for all the planning bits that make a decent (or even livable) neighborhood.

Re: Bay Area hammered by loss of jobs: Lack of affordable housing strangles hiring

#217

Post by wil421 » Mon, Oct 23, 2017, 5:51 PM UTC

tytytytytytytyt wrote: post #185

jorblumesea wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jesus, 2k / person a month is insane. This is what people are talking about. This is not acceptable or normal. I pay $900 / person a month for a large house in Seattle that's a 15 minute commute from downtown. Even with the bay's high salaries you're not doing very well. Throw in bills and other expenses and you're looking at ~40% of your monthly income, assuming a salary of 130k. That's ~50k per person, per year, in…

It's hardly insane for a house in a large metropolitan area! That's actually pretty reasonable, and lots of apartments in SF are 50% to 100% more in rent. If you look at current, or anything within maybe 5 years, house prices in Seattle I doubt you'll find much if anything within a 15 minute commute to downtown Seattle for a 900/month mortgage.

Absolutely insane. Going to buy a house with a 15 minute commute by train downtown. I’m looking to spend less than ~350k for a house with around 1500sq feet and fenced in yard.

I will be spending less than $2k total a month. West coast is crazy.

Re: Bay Area hammered by loss of jobs: Lack of affordable housing strangles hiring

#218

Post by glibgil » Mon, Oct 23, 2017, 5:51 PM UTC

jostmey wrote: post #189

ng12 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes Seattle better? I've visited friends there a few times and I can't shake the feeling that it's only trailing the Bay by a few years in of affordability and transportation woes.

My opinion: - Seattle has more diverse industry. I toured the bio-science companies down at the harbor and was really impressed. Seattle is more than just "tech". - SF is way too restrictive with allowing new housing to be built. I did not perceive the problem to be as bad in Seattle. - In SF, a lot of the streets reeked of weed--It's like when someone cranks up their music too loud forcing everyone to listen to it.…

Reeking of weed is like ambulance and police sirens. You only notice it the first two weeks of moving to a crowded city

Re: Bay Area hammered by loss of jobs: Lack of affordable housing strangles hiring

#219

Post by TuringNYC » Mon, Oct 23, 2017, 5:52 PM UTC

akhilcacharya wrote: post #114

whack wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In which of the above 3 categories would you put the Google/Facebook/Apple employees making 200-300k+ per year? I can't speak towards family living, but as a single person willing to live with roommates, you can find pretty nice places in the heart of Silicon Valley for ~$1000/month. Now add in compensation-packages well over 6 figures, brand-name companies for your resume, networking locally with other great enginee…

I'd consider living with non-family roommates to be in the "relative squalor" bucket if you're making $200k-300k a year.

I was making that much on Wall St back in the day and had roommates, because it was fun and we could share costs for a place we barely used since we were working.

As a married person with children now, having roommates is absolutely out of the question. I know people suggest it as a "solution" to the housing crisis but in no way is it acceptable in my mind to have strangers living in the house with my wife and children.

Re: Bay Area hammered by loss of jobs: Lack of affordable housing strangles hiring

#220

Post by dv_dt » Mon, Oct 23, 2017, 5:52 PM UTC

lisper wrote: post #143

davidw wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> where will they go Other tech hubs. Portland, Seattle - even little Bend has plenty of people from California who are attracted by the (for them) low housing prices. They, in turn, put pressure on housing prices for 'ordinary' people here. California's housing crisis has repercussions all up and down the west coast.

> California's housing crisis has repercussions all up and down the west coast. You're looking at it the wrong way. It's not that the situation in California has wider repercussions, it's that there is a wider problem whose symptoms happen to manifest themselves earliest in California because it's one of the nicer places to live: there are simply too many people and not enough space for them all to live in the nice p…

Exactly, money can move places faster than housing markets can respond. Some areas are unwilling to increase density, and some areas will be willing. I suspect that there is a practical physical and economic limit to the increase of density that many cities will be willing or able to scale to - and some may scale to destroy that quality that made them desirable places to live in the first place. There is a reason that not all cities make it to New York City level density.