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Why ProtonMail is more secure than Gmail

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Re: Why ProtonMail is more secure than Gmail

#131

Post by arghwhat »

pvg wrote: post #47
pushcx wrote: post #2

This post would be improved by discussing that their [threat model]( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threat_model ) is so different than Google's that it regards some of Google's business practices as threats. And that, in turn, there are threats that Google treats as much bigger threats, bringing their own world-class security team to. Calling this fundamental difference in approach "more secure" manipulates the less-…

A missing threat model gives this more credit than it merits. You can replace 'zero knowledge' with 'military grade' and it will be just as meaningful (if somewhat more obviously poor). Plus, you could say they are describing a threat model. If ProtonMail were compromised in this one particular way the confidentiality of your mail would be 'stronger' or 'improved'. This should be as reassuring as 'Switzerland', which…

ProtonMail has a publicly available threat model: https://protonmail.com/blog/protonmail-threat-model/

Without a threat model (that is, the set of threats that one is trying to secure a system against), you have no idea what someone means by "secure". It could mean unpickable doorlocks, it could mean unbreakable windows, it could mean angry-Hippopotamus-proofing. It could mean that you smelly farts can't escape your pants.

Any claim of security without a threat-model is in the most literal sense meaningless. And don't get me started on "Military Grade Encryption", which is a term that at this point should give you a sense of concern, rather than safety.

Re: Why ProtonMail is more secure than Gmail

#132

Post by datguacdoh »

rurban wrote: post #53
duality wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't Google stop scanning Gmail for ads targeting? https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/23/technology/gmail-ads.html

More importantly they give any government agency free access without any warrant to fulltext search any customer. US law interpretation of IMAP. Only with a POP3 service you are safe.

Source?

Re: Why ProtonMail is more secure than Gmail

#133

Post by tony101 »

mzzter wrote: post #94
blfr wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do for their new Advanced Protection Program[1]. The regular Gmail service is not really marketed to the security concious users. It's like comparing Android to Qubes OS. Not really fair. For what they are, Google products are surprisingly secure. [1] https://landing.google.com/advancedprotection/

Does anyone have experience using Google’s advanced protection service? I’m wondering if it’s worth managing the dongles.

I signed up last week and it isn't inconvenient at all. Security keys are only used when you first sign in to a device, after which devices are "remembered."

Re: Why ProtonMail is more secure than Gmail

#134

Post by thrownsjdke »

flashdance wrote: post #120
thrownsjdke wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just watch how I get down voted here. Tells you a lot about the culture here.

It's probably because you're calling him snow dog.

Edited, thanks. I doubt the downvotes will be undone, though.

Re: Why ProtonMail is more secure than Gmail

#135

Post by wyager »

3pt14159 wrote: post #119
HenryBemis wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be simplified to: Gmail + 0$ per month = zero privacy for you and anyone who emails you, plus Uncle Sam has full access to your life. Protonmail + 4$ per month = you will never see ads for a like the one you just bought, plus you will be driving Uncle Sam crazy!

Uncle Sam can root your machine. If Uncle Sam is the threat vector you're better off using pen and paper.

Uncle Sam can’t dragnet root everyone’s machine, but they can (and do) dragnet surveil large email providers not focused on security.

“The government can hack anyone, just give up” is a dumb objection if you view security from an economic perspective. Defenders have a huge advantage over attackers that we aren’t sufficiently taking advantage of yet.

Re: Why ProtonMail is more secure than Gmail

#136

Post by StavrosK »

tony101 wrote: post #123
StavrosK wrote: post #25

Does anyone know how they reconcile "zero-knowledge" and allowing people to log in? Do they encrypt your private key with a KDF of your password or something?

They use SRP for authentication, and yes, your private key is encrypted with a key derived from your passphrase. https://protonmail.com/blog/encrypted_email_authentication/

I see, thanks. So they use SRP with the password to authenticate, and then KDF(password) to decrypt your email (as they say). I would hope (and they probably do) use the latter to decrypt an encryption key for your email, rather than using your KDFed password directly, as that would mean they'd need to reencrypt all your mail if you changed your password.

Re: Why ProtonMail is more secure than Gmail

#137

Post by agrinman »

"Zero Knowledge Encryption" is just a marketing term... I wish marketing would not cross wires with real crypto, it makes me skeptical that they really know what they're doing. They're not the only company doing this and they should be called out for it like spideroak [1].

ZKP[2] is real branch of cryptography and they do not use it AFAIK.

[1] https://spideroak.com/articles/why-we-will-no-longer-use-the...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-knowledge_proof

Re: Why ProtonMail is more secure than Gmail

#138

Post by tankered »

Protonmail is not email, and should stop misrepresenting itself as email.

My favorite 'feature' of protonmail is that you can't access your messages via imap or pop, and their suggestion regarding exporting messages is: "At this time, you are able to save individual emails by using the "Print" function found inside each email in your account."

Protonmail had a very weird role in campaigning against the new sigint-law in switzerland, they used it for marketing for their service... now they say it's not that bad because protonmail advises the government on it.

I am very dubious of protonmail's claims. They don't release their server-side code, so nobody can audit it. There is no way to make sure a PGP encrypted message sent to a friend is actually encrypted with their public key only, you have to trust them.

You are also just one XSS away from losing your private key...

The reason not to open source the backend code is... terrifying: https://protonmail.com/blog/protonmail-open-source/#comment-...

What about the other things that are important, like does protonmail do full disk encryption? do they log ip addresses? They require you to sign up with a phone number if you use tor, but "promise" not store that. How can we trust them?

Their ToS states: "you agree to not use this Service for any unlawful or prohibited activities". But hey, if Mr. Robot uses it, it must be good!

They also have a very shifty claim of e2e encryption and a weird de-facto disabling the use of pgp. They do use openpgp.js, but for encrypting your mailbox, not for actually using pgp to mail other people.

They do actually support incoming pgp just fine, but I like to think of e-mail is bidirectional. To be fair, that is something they've had on their roadmap, but for almost three years now. Giving up the ability to send pgp-encrypted e-email is not a great trade-off (and let's not even get started on their notion that you're somehow better off with gmail as long as you use pgp).

So, trust the server, trust the HTTPS connection, trust the browser to not have any backdoors or security flaws in all extensions, and trust other apps that can access the browser's files and syscalls. Trust us, we are in switzerland. Why do people think that switzerland makes them somehow better position to deal with legal issues? Anyone from switzerland will tell you that they are not immune from evil laws and different parts of switzerland are significantly more draconian than others. Tell me how switzerland is some safe-haven that you should use as a criteria to determine your opsec. This selling point is pure snake-oil.

Re: Why ProtonMail is more secure than Gmail

#139

Post by toast0 »

amelius wrote: post #3

Very nice. One question though: how can we check if what they say is true? Is their client open-source? Also, would it be possible that if I open an email on an Android device, that Google still could read the email?

On a phone with Google Play Services, I think Google essentially has root, and can access whatever they like, so it's possible; but it's unlikely. Google is more likely to read the email if the content is posted into the notification feed, or the android search apis.

Re: Why ProtonMail is more secure than Gmail

#140

Post by shao87 »

HenryBemis wrote: post #111
pushcx wrote: post #2

This post would be improved by discussing that their [threat model]( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threat_model ) is so different than Google's that it regards some of Google's business practices as threats. And that, in turn, there are threats that Google treats as much bigger threats, bringing their own world-class security team to. Calling this fundamental difference in approach "more secure" manipulates the less-…

It can be simplified to: Gmail + 0$ per month = zero privacy for you and anyone who emails you, plus Uncle Sam has full access to your life. Protonmail + 4$ per month = you will never see ads for a like the one you just bought, plus you will be driving Uncle Sam crazy!

Seconded! You could add Tutanota + 1$ per month = you will never see ads for a like the one you just bought, plus you will be driving Uncle Sam crazy!
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