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Why ProtonMail is more secure than Gmail

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Re: Why ProtonMail is more secure than Gmail

#41
Threat model, threat model, threat model.

There are some people for whom "The government is literally after me, personally" is a valid threat model. There are some people for whom "Google employees with privileged access to Gmail are conspiring to be after me, personally" (one assumes there's a two-person rule for access to individual inboxes or deploying code that scans inboxes) is also a valid threat model.

However, those people should consider that the government will be willing to use either software 0-days or algorithmic 0-days to attack them (see e.g. Stuxnet taking out Iran's nuclear program using a previously unknown method of generating SHA-1 collisions, that looked kind of like how the academic community knew to generate collisions but with a different fingerprint), in the government case. Or that any interaction with anyone who uses Google must be avoided, in the Google case. See e.g. https://mako.cc/copyrighteous/google-has-most-of-my-email-be...

For normal people (which includes me and probably everyone else commenting here)? Google seems at least as likely, probably a tiny bit more, to protect me from threats like "A personal relationship has gone bad and someone who isn't a government and isn't Google is trying to impersonate be me" or "I don't want to lose access to my email" (remember that availability is a part of security!).

Re: Why ProtonMail is more secure than Gmail

#42

I don't understand this. Let's say I receive a newsletter from some website. That newsletter is not PGP-encrypted, so at some point the Proton Mail servers must be able to see a plaintext version of it. That means I have to trust that they never store that plaintext version. In addition, even if they immediately encrypt it and store the encrypted version, how can they do so such that only I can read it? Is the key ge…

In asymmetric encryption, the key for encryption is different from the key for decryption. You can encrypt something without being able to decrypt it, or vice versa.

You can encrypt your "master" key with another key derived from your password. When you change your password, you just decrypt and re-encrypt the master key so that it doesn't have to change.

The combination of these two techniques in one form or another is responsible for much of modern computer security, including the encryption used on this very website.

Re: Why ProtonMail is more secure than Gmail

#43
Encryption is cool, but in terms of security, Google probably hires more security researches than the entire staff of ProtonMail.

> Protected by ... European privacy laws

So is GSuite (https://gsuite.google.com/)

> No conflict of interest

There is no conflict of interest with G Suite either, which is governed by a different Terms of Use than normal Gmail. If that wouldn't be the case, being the "business" version, G Suite would be banned in most European companies.

Re: Why ProtonMail is more secure than Gmail

#44
The end-to-end encryption is only between protonmail addresses, in practice when you email people with gmail/hotmail/yahoo etc. it doesn't matter if protonmail can't read the e-mail, the other party can. (Their solution for that is to send an e-mail that contains a password-protected link with the actual message [0], I find this procedure inconvenient.)

Gmail could be as secure as Protonmail by using PGP yourself [1]. And then you can keep your desktop mail client.

Also Google won't need to pay criminals if they're DDOS attacked like Protonmail in the past: https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2015/11/05/proto... (this is when I gave up on Protonmail)

[0]: https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/encrypt-for-ou...

[1]: https://emailselfdefense.fsf.org/en/

Re: Why ProtonMail is more secure than Gmail

#45
The meaningful differences come with costs too.

“Zero knowledge” of email content means I can’t search my corpus of email without having all of that mail on a PC with a client that has a search feature.

What’s a bigger risk to you?

“End to end encryption” We’ve all had the PGP discussion. That adds a lot of complexity and a lot of cost and risk. Good luck searching it.

“TLS transport” Welcome to 2017, this isn’t meaningful.

It sounds like Proton Mail is a cool service. But that security comes at a capability cost and comes with other complexity that users may not understand.

Re: Why ProtonMail is more secure than Gmail

#46
post #2

This post would be improved by discussing that their [threat model]( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threat_model ) is so different than Google's that it regards some of Google's business practices as threats. And that, in turn, there are threats that Google treats as much bigger threats, bringing their own world-class security team to. Calling this fundamental difference in approach "more secure" manipulates the less-…

That's a fair criticism. I don't think the Gmail glossy brochure mentions its threat model either.

They do for their new Advanced Protection Program[1]. The regular Gmail service is not really marketed to the security concious users.

It's like comparing Android to Qubes OS. Not really fair. For what they are, Google products are surprisingly secure.

[1] https://landing.google.com/advancedprotection/

Re: Why ProtonMail is more secure than Gmail

#47
post #2

This post would be improved by discussing that their [threat model]( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threat_model ) is so different than Google's that it regards some of Google's business practices as threats. And that, in turn, there are threats that Google treats as much bigger threats, bringing their own world-class security team to. Calling this fundamental difference in approach "more secure" manipulates the less-…

A missing threat model gives this more credit than it merits. You can replace 'zero knowledge' with 'military grade' and it will be just as meaningful (if somewhat more obviously poor).

Plus, you could say they are describing a threat model. If ProtonMail were compromised in this one particular way the confidentiality of your mail would be 'stronger' or 'improved'. This should be as reassuring as 'Switzerland', which is, of course, also trotted out.

Re: Why ProtonMail is more secure than Gmail

#49
What are the security guarantees when emailing someone who does not use ProtonMail? If there is an encrypted mode, can this mode be turned off? This is critically important, and yet most of these email providers who talk up their security fail to bring it up. This article is the same.

Re: Why ProtonMail is more secure than Gmail

#50

I don't understand this. Let's say I receive a newsletter from some website. That newsletter is not PGP-encrypted, so at some point the Proton Mail servers must be able to see a plaintext version of it. That means I have to trust that they never store that plaintext version. In addition, even if they immediately encrypt it and store the encrypted version, how can they do so such that only I can read it? Is the key ge…

From what I understand, there are two passwords; the Mailbox passwords, used for encrypting and signing emails, is in fact unrecoverable, and you'll lose your emails if you forget it: https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/resetting-mail...
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