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Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

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Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#231

I am 41 years old, still doing software development and enjoying it for the most part. I work in France. Actually I enjoy it better than I used to since I find myself much more productive and I make less bad design decisions than I used to. I code daily in Javascript (NodeJs), Java and from time to time in groovy, python and golang. Being able to switch from 1 language to another, deploying in different cloud platfor…

Your last paragraph perfectly describes why as a French speaking American engineer I refuse to work in France even though I would love to live there. My salary in a flyover state in the US is 5X the best I could find in France.

Part of the problem is trying to employ people in France or, more specifically, worrying about the day when you need to stop employing someone in France.

After going through it once, I'll never voluntarily do it again.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is VERY good analysis, everything else is padding to validate why 40 year old are not good fits. It is puzzling that most business owners prefer to save their imagined superior position than to get the job done. Sure I have seen ton of problems (and solved most of them) in 25+ years of carrier and I can be of great help in any startup. My caring for the company and input should be welcomed, not seen as threat. I…

Higher-ups and execs don't care if you're mediocre and barely get the job done as long as you kiss their ass and take their low pay to make them look good and get their bonuses.

I think this attitude gets in the way of finding what is really happening. Are there companies with bad management? Yes, but I think that is generally the exception. As someone who has been a manager and a 'higher up/exec' at various points, I never cared about someones age. I wanted people working for me who could get the job done so I could get my bonus/promotion/whatever. No managers that I know want mediocre or ass kissing, because none of that helps get the job done which is what really leads to more money (through bonuses and advancement).

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When I was young and single I had no reason to really go home after work, so I’d linger at work to finish things and I would work on work things at home in my spare time. I am 23 (started working in programming at 22) and this view confuses me. I don't want to sound rude but... you didn't have hobbies? Friends? Partner? Errands to run? Non-work programming projects? Even when I was single and lived alone, I had ple…

"I am 23 (started working in programming at 22) and this view confuses me. I don't want to sound rude but... you didn't have hobbies? Friends? Partner? Errands to run? Non-work programming projects? Even when I was single and lived alone, I had plenty of reasons to leave after 8 hours." When I was 23 I had a very active fun social life as you appear to have as well. BTW I had the same opinions as you at that age as w…

Good point in differentiating between optional and required activities. I definitely think it is more important for a father or mother to work reasonable hours than someone like me. I just don't like the attitude some companies have that because I am 23 I have nothing to do so of course I'll work longer than I need to.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#234
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My LinkedIn profile is not my authoritative job history -- my resume is. Your first job as a recruiter or potential hiring manager is to find my resume. It's not hard. I should also mention that when I'm looking for a job, I'm usually contacting you. If I email you I will include a direct link to my resume. If I'm applying through a portal it will ask me to upload my resume. Either way there's no excuse for people in…

Most recruiters are going to look at your LinkedIn profile, and they won't do the digging to find your resume unless they like your LinkedIn profile. That's just the way it is, whether you think there is an excuse for it or not. You're only hurting yourself by refusing to spruce up your LinkedIn profile.

> and they won't do the digging to find your resume unless they like your LinkedIn profile

Yes, and that's a big part of my point. This is an actual problem, and we (the software development industry) should try to fix it. Or at least make it suck less.

When I switched to applying through AngelList I had much better luck, and that's how I got my current job. Part of that is that early mode startups are picky about other things than later mode startups or big companies. But mostly I think it was because actual engineering hiring managers were looking at the applications without requiring them to go through an HR/sourcer/recruiter filter first.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#235
> Indeed found that 17% of survey respondents said the average employee age at their company is between 20 and 30 years old, while 29% of survey respondents said the average employee age is between 31 and 35. An additional 27% of respondents said the average age at their company was 36-40 years old.

> That leaves just 26% of the workplace roles for staffers over 40, Indeed found.

Seriously? This conflates "range of average ages among companies" with "range of ages of employees at companies" to a galling extent. There's no way this whole argument is a typo...how does something like this get past an editor?

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#236
Ageism is not really the problem. The problem is looking for that someone that will fit into the elusive culture fit. And I see this culturism as worse than any kind of discrimination practiced in the past and now (racism, sexism, etc).

What is culture in a work place as we know it these days in the realms of startup shops?

It's stuff like:

- can you be a good drinking buddy?

- do you look young and hip?

- can you carry on a small talk and talk about stuff like favorite rock band, movies at company events? Never mind that to be a rockstar coder at your young age, you never watched a movie or went to a concert BUT instead spent all your time coding and learning how to code faster/better.

- do you have any interesting hobby like rock climbing or traveling that makes you an interesting person? Never mind that having an interesting hobby will actually damage your chance of becoming a good coder, cause it will take so much time away from coding. With so many things to learn and keep up with, how do you have the time to have an interesting hobby?

- oh also, can you give a good talk on a tech topic? like a good tech sales person? But why would you want to be a coder that will surely hit an arbitrary salary cap while working full 50+ hr a week, when a salesman will make more than coders due to sales commission (while working practically a part time job)? And don't forget about all the extras salespeople get like traveling.

- are you an extremely pleasant person to deal with? Buy why? Are you hiring a sales clerk or a coder? Can a coder be just a normal human being, not one with a forced smiles on face?

- are you all of the above so that ones you refer to the company as potential hire will be clones of yourself?

- oh and can you code?

All this in workplaces that are automating human interaction out of daily work and personal life.

And now increasingly shops that encourage/tout remote working where coworkers don't see each other in person.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#237
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's hard to gauge experience I think this could be solved by coming up with a more common vocabulary of tech job titles. In medicine you have technicians, orderlies, surgeons, general practitioners, anesthesiologists, physician-scientists, nurses, physicians' assistants, teaching physicians, and so on. Not to mention all the hospital administrators. They're not all "medical engineers". They don't (at least not to…

>I think this could be solved by coming up with a more common vocabulary of tech job titles. That's a good point. I think that mismatches in salary expectation are often driven by this. I can find jobs that feel very similar, but ask for "Senior Developer", "Software Engineer II", "Lead Software Engineer", "Tech Lead", "Software Architect", "Programmer Analyst". Then, the varied use of "Junior, Senior" vs "I, II, III…

that seems to be just noise, all the jobs are 'devops - work on what we think we need today'

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#238

I am 41 years old, still doing software development and enjoying it for the most part. I work in France. Actually I enjoy it better than I used to since I find myself much more productive and I make less bad design decisions than I used to. I code daily in Javascript (NodeJs), Java and from time to time in groovy, python and golang. Being able to switch from 1 language to another, deploying in different cloud platfor…

This is what made my first place of employment sour. Everyone was arrogant, less than 1 year of experience, obsessively talked about how we should use the other framework or language and how it would solve all our problems (all these suggestions were driven by unbacked hype and ready-to-be-broked promises) and nobody really wanted to focus on actually getting the work done.

My beginner hubris at my first employer still makes me cringe.

Back when I thought all crappy code was due to incompetence, so good thing I'm here now.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#239
post #168

My last job search (in Seattle) took me months longer than I was expecting. This could be ageism at work (I'm 48), but I'm still inclined to think that there's a more mundane explanation: The recruitment and hiring process for software engineers has gone from crappy to damn near broken. If ageism is a significant problem right now, it's possible that it is primarily a completely unintended side-effect of how were doi…

Out of curiosity, why does your LinkedIn not list months for all of the 1 year jobs you have? It seems really suspicious to me, and as a hiring manager it would almost certainly have been a red flag.

I would love you to look at my profile to get your opinion on whether I have any red flags, is there a way I can contact you? Just a quick glance would be great.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with everything you said except for one thing: developer salaries later-on are not artificially kept down vs the value they create. The are artificially inflated when they are younger due to the scarcity of developers. This is why one can become a "Senior Developer" at 24 (such as I did) because the title is matched to the salary as opposed to the actual amount of experience it would take to be a "senior" any…

Question: how does one become a "senior developer" if one has only worked at startups? Is it as simple as assigning yourself the title? Or does one need to work at a large organization (with large teams) to be able to use this title (with credibility of course)? What if you were the only developer at the startup?

The title will be handed out as a perk when you've been with the company for a relatively long period (on the order of a couple years), or to add and ego bump to the salary bump of an offer at a new gig.

In our field, it's a near meaningless title modifier.

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