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Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

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Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#91

Post by oddlyaromatic »

intellectronica wrote: post #60
eric_h wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Age discrimination can also be salary discrimination. People with more experience rightfully require more in salary.

This is a view that actually sometimes prevents older people from managing it in market. Because of how fast technology moves, much of your experience from 10+ years ago isn't very relevant today, so if you expect a higher salary because of it you will be disappointed. It's important to be realistic and accept that if you've been working since your early 20s, you accumulate experience that might result in a higher sa…

>much of your experience from 10+ years ago isn't very relevant today

>you're not more qualified than someone less experienced who has that skill.

I'd gently disagree with this. An extra decade or more of working and navigating the relationships of a workplace, and honing a sense of professional judgment and problem solving is worth something. An employee does far more than implement a specific skill. You need some of that extra stuff too.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#92

Post by purplethinking »

toyg wrote: post #88
purplethinking wrote: post #86

Not sure if it'll be a problem for the millenial generation, but I'm sure not going to wait to find out. My goal is to not need a job by 45. If by then I still have to "beg" businesses to employ me, I will have failed. That means either enough money in the bank + low enough expenses, having my own stream of income, or be good enough that I can do consulting for multiple businesses (and thus diversify my across employ…

Good luck doing that with kids and a mortgage.

Have a kid and mortgage, but saving 60% of household post-tax income. We do what we can to stay lean, and have been doing that for the past decade. That means some sacrifices (e.g. no car(s)), but it's worth it for the peace of mind.

Most people on this site are highly paid software engineers. If you have one or even two of those salaries but live like the mean or even median family, you will be able to save quite a lot. If you choose not to, that's fine too. But to me, living like the median family is quite comfortable already. I'd rather use the rest of the money as a safety net.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#93

Post by azr79 »

code4tee wrote: post #15

Startups and such typically don’t want young people because their smarter, it’s because their more gullible career wise. Sure some people get a bit stale with age but some also get far far smarter and their experience can be very valuable. “Hey guys we have no business plan or customers, but please pull a few more all nighters to finish this bit of code.” 22 year old living with 5 roommates is like “yes sure, whateve…

> because their smarter

> their

not as "smart" as you are

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#94

Post by gerbilly »

nomercy400 wrote: post #32

As somebody who does interviews for developers in a Java shop, a very blunt view of things: Any coding you've done more than five years ago isn't relevant anymore. I can't remember what I did five years ago. It is probably outdated, replaced or not in use any more. Looking back at my projects from five years ago, I would probably not agree with most of the code, as I've learned a lot of new things. I do care about yo…

>You don't know what the technology behind a website is? Then it's a minus, as you've missed out on ten years of technological advancements in your field.

Huh, we hired a guy who worked on the JVM and the Java compiler.

Not much web experience.

Would he have been technical enough for you?

You don't like COBOL it seems, but you do realize that web development and it's byzantine combination of random languages, document standards and frameworks is maybe even worse than COBOL was?

We have nothing to be proud of as web developers, if you ask me. At least some programmers in the 60s and 70s were discovering brand new algorithms that we still use today, not just marshalling data in JSON (JSON is a crappy XML replacement) between layers of code and the NOSQL database (NOSQL is a worse SQL) and re-inventing their web framework every 3 months.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#95

Post by dogruck »

zeroxfe wrote: post #82
dogruck wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of those points are actually age discriminatory. For example, why assume that an older person should earn more than a younger person? Instead, it's better to think about paying people in proportion to the value that they provide to the company. I understand that many startups simply do not have the cash required to pay a high base salary. But, that's what equity compensation is for.

> For example, why assume that an older person should earn more than a younger person? They shouldn't earn more, if they're providing the same value as someone paid less. But, they typically ask for more, because they have more experience (which is difficult to validate), and usually have more financial obligations. It is up to the employer to decide if they want to pay the price of seniority. > I understand that man…

I agree with you that increased age does not imply increased value/pay.

I do not agree about risk aversion. I know several older software developers who have finally paid off their student debt and accumulated some savings, and are now ready to accept some higher risk compensation. In addition, I know younger workers who are in desperate need of cash.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#96

Post by christocracy »

rdl wrote: post #10

Maybe I'm being overly optimistic, but I think a lot of the discrimination is specifically anti-Boomer or anti-people-who-didn't-grow-up-with-Internet, not specific to age. If true, then 40 will be the 30 of 10 years ago.

I’m 45. I was downloading games from BBSes with my C=64 in 1986; connecting to BBSes with long-distance calls.

Yes, we grokked the internet immediately and, as a group, developed it while you were watching cartoons and playing on your XBox.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#97

Post by philipov »

humanrebar wrote: post #87
allengeorge wrote: post #73

I suspect there are a couple of reasons - especially in the newer/startup space: * Salary. Older employees are more experienced, but, just as importantly, they've already job-hopped a bit, so their base is a lot higher. And they've probably a lot more personal financial responsibilities. All told, they're unlikely to go for the same salary as a new grad. * Interview process. Anecdotal experience, but, the interview p…

> It's hard to gauge experience I think this could be solved by coming up with a more common vocabulary of tech job titles. In medicine you have technicians, orderlies, surgeons, general practitioners, anesthesiologists, physician-scientists, nurses, physicians' assistants, teaching physicians, and so on. Not to mention all the hospital administrators. They're not all "medical engineers". They don't (at least not to…

I was top of my class at the seminary, and I just don't understand why I never hear back from these jobs seeking a technology evangelist!

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#98

Post by humanrebar »

fsloth wrote: post #66

The best insurance against age is to find some domain, and excel at that. At 40, it's not so good if your top claim in CV is "I know C++ in an out". "I was part of a team delivering product X, Y and Z which produced this much revenue for our company and which provided this and this value to our clients. I'm experienced contributor in domain W, and am comfortable in providing value using technologies A and B." is much…

> ...it's not so good if your top claim in CV is "I know C++ in an out"

There's a shortage of C++ engineers right now, at least in my region. They are getting a lot of interest and great job offers if they know their stuff.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#99

Post by dogruck »

allengeorge wrote: post #80
dogruck wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of those points are actually age discriminatory. For example, why assume that an older person should earn more than a younger person? Instead, it's better to think about paying people in proportion to the value that they provide to the company. I understand that many startups simply do not have the cash required to pay a high base salary. But, that's what equity compensation is for.

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear: I'm not asking companies to pay older employees more. I'm simply pointing out that job-hopping and personal commitments make it likely that older employees will demand a higher salary, which smaller companies may be loath to give.

I think we simultaneously agree and disagree.

I agree that older candidates typically have expectations of higher total compensation.

My point is that, either:

1. That expectation is unfounded -- they are looking to be paid out of proportion to the value they would provide back to the company, or

2. That expectation is justified, in which case the cash-poor company should find some way of striking a deal, so that they can bring on an employee of high value.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#100

Post by dogruck »

jakobegger wrote: post #81
dogruck wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of those points are actually age discriminatory. For example, why assume that an older person should earn more than a younger person? Instead, it's better to think about paying people in proportion to the value that they provide to the company. I understand that many startups simply do not have the cash required to pay a high base salary. But, that's what equity compensation is for.

The problem with that line of thinking is that it is extremely hard to measure the value that employees provide to the company. “Pay them what they are worth” sounds straightforward, but in reality you just can’t put a number on a candidate. The younger candidate might be inexperienced but a fast learner; the older candidate might have a lot of experience, but might be reluctant to adopt the companies coding practice…

I agree that it is hard to measure an employee's value. Furthermore, predicting a candidate's value is even more difficult.

Even then, I think the compensation can be structured to reflect that risk profile.

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