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Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

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Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#11
post #8

There is substantial scientific evidence showing age-related cognitive decline begins relatively early in adulthood. The science is not controversial. http://examinedexistence.com//wp-content/uploads/2013/12/cry... This is a simplified view but communicates the idea. Some might say crystallized intelligence is under-valued in tech. That might be true. But then we should discuss that, not through the lens of social ju…

Maybe experience can be more valuable than raw cognitive ability?

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#12
post #8

There is substantial scientific evidence showing age-related cognitive decline begins relatively early in adulthood. The science is not controversial. http://examinedexistence.com//wp-content/uploads/2013/12/cry... This is a simplified view but communicates the idea. Some might say crystallized intelligence is under-valued in tech. That might be true. But then we should discuss that, not through the lens of social ju…

On behalf of all old people: Fuck that, and fuck the idea that cognitive performance alone should determine whether someone in our industry can eat.

Because as much as we love to tout that every programmer is living with a house and a mortgage and a happy family, I happen to know for a fact that some are struggling to eat.

Eh. Not exactly an objective viewpoint, I know. But to maybe drain away some of the energy I just threw into that: Being old is our shared destination. It'll happen to you too. It'll happen to me. How is this a productive outlook?

I've known some amazingly productive old people. I learned from one of the best in the gamedev industry. He was my mentor, and basically a mini carmack. When I hear statements like this, I cannot fathom how people believe this myth that old people are inherently less able to kick your ass at programming.

I really hesitate to bring this up, but there's this dopey argument that HN trolls love to bring up, where they point to a certain area of science and say "Look! Black people are inherently dumber. The science says so." Yet the one black man that I was fortunate enough to work with in our industry -- one, out of six companies, there was only one -- was the most effective, cool coworker I was fortunate enough to know.

It's incredibly easy to point to some science and say "Oh, I'm objective." But I invite you to re-read http://www.paulgraham.com/bias.html carefully, and realize that if what you say is true, then our industry is populated with stellar outliers. That's the definition of bias, right? They have to be stellar to overcome it.

So why would you want argue that the stellar people that managed to get through the gauntlet of discrimination should be looked down upon?

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#13
“Indeed found that 17% of survey respondents said the average employee age at their company is between 20 and 30 years old, while 29% of survey respondents said the average employee age is between 31 and 35. An additional 27% of respondents said the average age at their company was 36-40 years old.

That leaves just 26% of the workplace roles for staffers over 40, Indeed found.”

Innumeracy sucks at any age.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#14
I feel this might change when more of the current young generation of engineers are getting older since there just weren't as many tech workers 20 years ago, so it's still relatively rare to see 50 year old developers. Besides there are many places outside of Silicon Valley or the US were experienced engineers are very welcome.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#15
Startups and such typically don’t want young people because their smarter, it’s because their more gullible career wise. Sure some people get a bit stale with age but some also get far far smarter and their experience can be very valuable.

“Hey guys we have no business plan or customers, but please pull a few more all nighters to finish this bit of code.”

22 year old living with 5 roommates is like “yes sure, whatever you say” while 40 year old with lots of experience is like “you don’t know what the F you’re doing... I’m outta here.”

That’s why.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#16
post #8

There is substantial scientific evidence showing age-related cognitive decline begins relatively early in adulthood. The science is not controversial. http://examinedexistence.com//wp-content/uploads/2013/12/cry... This is a simplified view but communicates the idea. Some might say crystallized intelligence is under-valued in tech. That might be true. But then we should discuss that, not through the lens of social ju…

It reminds me of a quote. The British number theorist G.H. Hardy, in A Mathematician's Apology, one of the most widely read books about the nature and practice of mathematics, famously wrote: "No mathematician should ever allow himself to forget that mathematics, more than any other art or science, is a young man's game."

Basically, the claim is that people over the age of thirty being productive in math is an anomaly. However, I've never used any advanced mathematical concepts as a programmer so I doubt my quote has any validity here. I imagine things are different in data science but I only concede because I have no idea what data scientists do. It just feels like magic.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#17

Startups and such typically don’t want young people because their smarter, it’s because their more gullible career wise. Sure some people get a bit stale with age but some also get far far smarter and their experience can be very valuable. “Hey guys we have no business plan or customers, but please pull a few more all nighters to finish this bit of code.” 22 year old living with 5 roommates is like “yes sure, whateve…

It’s also family and responsibility. When I was young and single I had no reason to really go home after work, so I’d linger at work to finish things and I would work on work things at home in my spare time. Now that I’m married, I have more important things to do and my company gets much less free labor.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#18
post #8

There is substantial scientific evidence showing age-related cognitive decline begins relatively early in adulthood. The science is not controversial. http://examinedexistence.com//wp-content/uploads/2013/12/cry... This is a simplified view but communicates the idea. Some might say crystallized intelligence is under-valued in tech. That might be true. But then we should discuss that, not through the lens of social ju…

I think it's sad that the myth that you have to be some sort of genius to be in this industry persists. It's just not true. Most jobs consist of simple work, no matter how complex the people doing it tell themselves it is. Experience is far more important than raw intelligence for more advanced work.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#19
post #8

There is substantial scientific evidence showing age-related cognitive decline begins relatively early in adulthood. The science is not controversial. http://examinedexistence.com//wp-content/uploads/2013/12/cry... This is a simplified view but communicates the idea. Some might say crystallized intelligence is under-valued in tech. That might be true. But then we should discuss that, not through the lens of social ju…

There's a reason the axes are left unlabeled in this graph. If you look at a paper that gives values over time for these quantities you'll find that this 'effect' mounts up to about 3 IQ points over the range discussed in the article in a population with an SD of 12 [0].

As a basis for discrimination, this is nonsense: on an individual basis you learn next to nothing about an individual's IQ if you know their age. Of course, there may be better studies out there - I'm not an expert and so don't know of them.

[0] http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/08876177950...

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#20
post #14

I feel this might change when more of the current young generation of engineers are getting older since there just weren't as many tech workers 20 years ago, so it's still relatively rare to see 50 year old developers. Besides there are many places outside of Silicon Valley or the US were experienced engineers are very welcome.

I agree. My experience has been that ageist views (just like sexism, racism, homophobia, etc) are more often expressed by people of previous generations and that millennials are actually more flexible and open to the idea that they would work with someone older (or of another gender, different skin colour, etc).
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