Live data from Hacker News

The Family Making Billions from the Opioid Crisis

esquire.com

221–230 of 259 posts

Re: The Family Making Billions from the Opioid Crisis

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you think people get informed? Do you really think that advertising isn't useful to informing people? Do you really think as many patients would find out about viable treatments for their conditions if you ban advertising? Advertising isn't hypnosis. People know not to take claims at face value and if they don't, US medical ads are full of disclaimers and warnings. And once you see an ad for a treatment, you h…

> Do you really think doctors alone should decide your treatment? Yes. Not necessarily one doctor, or even two doctors. Get a second opinion, or just switch your doctor if you don't like them. The alternative of letting profiteers peddling medicine influence a poorly educated populace is most unfortunate.

Try talking to a few doctors. They would love it if their patients took an active role in their own health.

In fact, I'd goes as far as saying relying 100% on your doctor for your health decisions is pretty stupid.

Re: The Family Making Billions from the Opioid Crisis

#222
post #74

I was on Oxy for about a month after smashing one of my vertibraes into pieces in a climbing accident, I was prescribed more than three times as much. I walked through hell to get out of that crap; nothing else I've encountered even comes close, including heroine and cocaine. There are several natural, less addictive and less harmful methods for treating chronic pain; cannabis, mushrooms and meditation among others.…

Perdue Pharma, the producer of Oxy, is basically making half of its customers into drug addicts by lying about "12-hours" of "effective" pain relief. The LA Times ran an investigation into Perdue Pharma's claim[1] and the article is incredibly disturbing. This is the killer quote: > "More than half of long-term OxyContin users are on doses that public health officials consider dangerously high, according to an analys…

You do realize that if Purdue talked about any other dosing regimen other than 12 hours that would be illegal off-label promotion right?

Re: The Family Making Billions from the Opioid Crisis

#223
post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ick! This reinforces my belief that direct-to-consumer advertising of prescription drugs should be illegal.

Really? The FDA did a study with physicians and they thought it was quite useful![1] - Many physicians thought that DTC ads made their patients more involved in their health care. - The study demonstrated that when a patient asked about a specific drug, 88 percent of the time they had the condition that the drug treated. Of course the study showed there were problems, but it was the ads had many more positive effects…

That's not the story I got from that study. At all.

* 58% of respondents "agreed strongly that DTC ads make the drugs seem better than they really are"

* 78% of physicians believed patients understood possible benefits, however, only 40% believe patients understood the risks involved.

* 75% of "physicians surveyed believed that DTC ads cause patients to think that the drug works better than it does"

* "physicians felt some pressure to prescribe something when patients mentioned DTC ads."

So, patients are getting more involved and asking questions, which is great, but they don't understand the risks involved, the patient misrepresents how well the drug is working for them, and the physician feels pressure to give them what they ask for.

That sort of bias is a problem, especially with on-going therapy. If a patient is being misled by DTC ads about how well they are being treated, they can't raise questions that would allow them to get even better treatment. If a physician is feeling pressured to give a drug when asked, they can't try other, sometimes more effective, therapies.

Re: The Family Making Billions from the Opioid Crisis

#224
post #223
post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? The FDA did a study with physicians and they thought it was quite useful![1] - Many physicians thought that DTC ads made their patients more involved in their health care. - The study demonstrated that when a patient asked about a specific drug, 88 percent of the time they had the condition that the drug treated. Of course the study showed there were problems, but it was the ads had many more positive effects…

That's not the story I got from that study. At all. * 58% of respondents "agreed strongly that DTC ads make the drugs seem better than they really are" * 78% of physicians believed patients understood possible benefits, however, only 40% believe patients understood the risks involved. * 75% of "physicians surveyed believed that DTC ads cause patients to think that the drug works better than it does" * "physicians fel…

Sure the patients don't understand the risks, that's what the doctor is there to explain.

I guess my point is that most people see DTC ads as completely useless and harmful overall.

The study seems to suggest there are a lot of positive benefits.

One point I didn't copy paste showed that of the 80% of patient who actually had the condition, 5% were previously undiagnosed! That means a drug ad potentially saved thei life if it was a serious disease!

Re: The Family Making Billions from the Opioid Crisis

#225
post #224
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not the story I got from that study. At all. * 58% of respondents "agreed strongly that DTC ads make the drugs seem better than they really are" * 78% of physicians believed patients understood possible benefits, however, only 40% believe patients understood the risks involved. * 75% of "physicians surveyed believed that DTC ads cause patients to think that the drug works better than it does" * "physicians fel…

Sure the patients don't understand the risks, that's what the doctor is there to explain. I guess my point is that most people see DTC ads as completely useless and harmful overall. The study seems to suggest there are a lot of positive benefits. One point I didn't copy paste showed that of the 80% of patient who actually had the condition, 5% were previously undiagnosed! That means a drug ad potentially saved thei l…

The doctor explaining the risks isn't working, because of the ad.

The DTC ads aren't completely useless, but they are harmful.

A patient is unable to understand that the drug is putting them at risk. 60% of people can't see their side-effects as side-effects. So dangerous side-effects like angina and depression take longer to diagnose, leaving the patient at-risk.

A patient is showing a placebo effect, so the doctor cannot tell how well the drug is working. That means, if it's a serious disease, they might be getting worse, but are unable to identify it, and for staged illnesses, that can mean more important treatment comes too late.

Remember, self-reporting is still the primary way we convey to doctors what's happening with us. If it can't be trusted to be accurate, the doctor can't be as effective as they need to be.

Re: The Family Making Billions from the Opioid Crisis

#226
post #225
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure the patients don't understand the risks, that's what the doctor is there to explain. I guess my point is that most people see DTC ads as completely useless and harmful overall. The study seems to suggest there are a lot of positive benefits. One point I didn't copy paste showed that of the 80% of patient who actually had the condition, 5% were previously undiagnosed! That means a drug ad potentially saved thei l…

The doctor explaining the risks isn't working, because of the ad. The DTC ads aren't completely useless, but they are harmful. A patient is unable to understand that the drug is putting them at risk. 60% of people can't see their side-effects as side-effects. So dangerous side-effects like angina and depression take longer to diagnose, leaving the patient at-risk. A patient is showing a placebo effect, so the doctor…

The doctor explaining the risks isn't working, because of the ad.

Not sure I understand. The survey was asking doctors if they think patients understand the risks from seeing the ad. Doctors think they do.

But patients then need to go and talk to the doctor, who should then clarify the risks since they are the medical professional, not the patient.

If the patient then decides the risks are worth it, and the doctor thinks the drug will help, the doctor writes a prescription.

Re: The Family Making Billions from the Opioid Crisis

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LOL. There isn't a sniff of any tax evasion or crime to Buffett's wealth. I'm also pretty doubtful he's ever lobbied anyone for any personal advantage, remember this is a guy who has publicly lobbied for higher taxes on the wealthy, including himself. "If anything, taxes for the lower and middle class and maybe even the upper middle class should even probably be cut further. But I think that people at the high end -…

No, I would not assume buying Berkshire and going in that direction was anything but a purely profit seeking decision unless you have evidence to the contrary. By tax evasion I mean buying companies and taking their profits as dividends, which means 15% tax or no tax at all in many cases. Yes it's reinvested but it's clearly an effort to avoid capital gains/income taxes. Buffets recent comments on tax policy have no…

Buying Berkshire and running it as an investment vehicle clearly was a “profit seeking” decision, it also clearly wasn’t a profit maximization decision. The most mediocre hedge fund manager alive gets 2% of the fund a year for “expenses”, and 20% of the profits. Buffett obviously could have gotten the same, which would have doubled or tripled his current net worth.

If he had that perfectly standard money management arrangement, Buffett would have made $10B last year, and been able to shield it from taxes as long term capital gains. Instead he made $100,000 in salary, and paid regular taxes on it. The last 4 years alone a 2/20 profit share would have been worth close to $40B, nearly doubling his net worth just from those years, ignoring the profit share from the 40 years before that.

The reason Buffett chose Berkshire as a vehicle and doesn’t take his rightful fees from it, is he was already wealthy when he started with it. He had shutdown the Buffett Partnerships and briefly retired after making himself and his investors (a collection of mostly Omaha doctors and dentists) all multi-millionaires in only 13 years. When he decided to restart his friends and investors jumped in with him and he didn’t need or want to charge them fees. So every BRK shareholder since has gotten that glorious free ride.

The dividend tax rate is another spurious issue. Coke pays federal and state taxes on its profits, the pays most all of what’s left as dividends to its investors. Berkshire only pays around a 10% tax rate on those dividends, less than the 15-20% individual investors pay, but for good reason, because the corporate dividend tax is the first level of a DOUBLE taxation. If Buffett ever wants to pocket those Coke dividends, Berkshire has to pay them as dividends and shareholders would owe another 15% dividend tax rate on top and Buffett himself would have to pay 20% because he’s top bracket. That 10% is an extra tax Berkshire shareholders have to pay to own Coke thru Berkshire instead of directly.

This also shows how Berkshire’s tax structure is so inefficient. Even with the “discount” on dividend earnings, Berkshire paid over $7B in taxes last year on $33B in eanings. If he was still running an investment partnership, not only could he pay himself massive fees, but those fees would be considered “carried interest” and treated like long term capital gains, and only taxed when he sold shares, at low long term capital gains rates.

If insurance float is an interest free loan, in what world is it tax evasion? Taxes are owed on profits, not loans. And float is only interest free if you run your insurance companies exceptionally well. Ordinary insurers take a loss on float as a cost of doing business. But Buffett refuses to own insurers that are that crappy, and it’s the discipline of his insurance companies that makes Berkshire one of the rare insurers to have free float.

Lastly “crime” has a meaning, and you don’t get to redefine it as things you regard as “unethical”. Buffett has been investing very publicly for over 60 years with a total tally of zero crimes, and zero unethical acts. You may wish for some to maintain your silly desire that people can only be more successful than you by cheating and committing crimes, but they ain’t coming.

Re: The Family Making Billions from the Opioid Crisis

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I definitely don't wanna play devils advocate for these scumbags, but can't you apply your logic to basically any product? I mean, Coca-Cola. Its at best product of dubious value, and at worst produced for the need for sugar by tens of thousands of people.

Not sure how deliberate your example was, but you can't hardly beat Coca Cola as a damaging influence on society. Coca Cola spends millions on propaganda disguised as research, designed to convince people that their product is not a health hazard. They're no better than the big tobacco companies. And let's not forget that the sugar industry as a whole has done this on a vast scale over decades, bribing scientists and…

We have been too kind to the Coca Cola brand. We tell ourselves that Coca Cola started out as the product we know and love but originally there just so happened to be trace amounts of cocaine in there. These would have been harmless quantities, not likely to have any type of effect. This is the quaint legend we have arrived at.

However.

Coca Cola started as a sugary drink laced with cocaine. Much like how beer has alcohol in it to keep you buying more, Coca Cola had that magically addictive cocaine in it to keep customers coming back for more.

The name 'Coca Cola' is a celebration of this history, really there is no more insane an idea than getting a nation hooked on class A drugs in liquid form. The name and the connotations would make a right minded person want to be disassociated from that.

In theory a 'crack pipe' could be re-purposed as a nice little vase suitable for a small child to play with. But that would make you shudder. So why is it that we are happy to have this denatured liquid cocaine drink as something we give to children? We could at least change the branding, drop the 'coke' and 'coca-' drug references. With allusions to it being the real thing?

When original Coca Cola got closed down and they had to reformulate their marketing they realised that they could do just as well getting people hooked to sugary drinks laced with caffeine and salt, the cocaine wasn't actually needed to shift product. Or even the sugar, fake sweeteners work too, perhaps even more addictively. Maybe it is the marketing that is the problem and not the product ingredients. They can even get the water hooked into buying plain bottled water, something that was never bought back in the days when tap water was a luxury.

Re: The Family Making Billions from the Opioid Crisis

#229
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why they advertise on Superbowl, TV shows and everywhere else. To make people think they have something and their pill can make it go away. Doctor Johnson doesn't prescribe it, another one will. Otherwise they'd only target doctors, in their offices, trade mags and all. http://www.businessinsider.com/infographic-america-is-over-m...

Are you saying it's bad when patients take an interest in their own health? Doctors aren't mind readers.

It can be. Does the average patient have a medical license, know of all the side effects...etc etc? NOPE. Ask questions of course but like buying frying pans you saw on a 4am infomercial with "Only 2 left, hurry!!!" demanding the meds you saw on tv is a bad idea.

Stats say that we're way over prescribed.

Re: The Family Making Billions from the Opioid Crisis

#230
post #226
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The doctor explaining the risks isn't working, because of the ad. The DTC ads aren't completely useless, but they are harmful. A patient is unable to understand that the drug is putting them at risk. 60% of people can't see their side-effects as side-effects. So dangerous side-effects like angina and depression take longer to diagnose, leaving the patient at-risk. A patient is showing a placebo effect, so the doctor…

The doctor explaining the risks isn't working, because of the ad. Not sure I understand. The survey was asking doctors if they think patients understand the risks from seeing the ad. Doctors think they do. But patients then need to go and talk to the doctor, who should then clarify the risks since they are the medical professional, not the patient. If the patient then decides the risks are worth it, and the doctor th…

> Not sure I understand. The survey was asking doctors if they think patients understand the risks from seeing the ad. Doctors think they do.

Plainly, you read a different study than I.

This direct quote, directly disagrees with you:

> Seventy-eight percent of physicians believe their patients understand the possible benefits of the drug very well or somewhat, compared to 40 percent who believe their patients understand the possible risks, and 65 percent believe DTC ads confuse patients about the relative risks and benefits of prescription drugs.

Again, that means:

* 60% of doctors believe patients do not understand possible risks.

* 65% of doctors believe DTC ads confuse patients about risks and benefits.

Doctors do not believe that patients understand risks from seeing the ad.

> If the patient then decides the risks are worth it, and the doctor thinks the drug will help, the doctor writes a prescription.

Again, the study disagrees with your conclusions here. Here's another direct quote:

> and many physicians felt some pressure to prescribe something when patients mentioned DTC ads.

The doctor feels the need to prescribe it, based purely on the fact that the patient mentioned an ad. The doctor may or may not think the risks are worth it, but they feel the need to sign off on any drug simply because the patient saw an ad.

> But patients then need to go and talk to the doctor, who should then clarify the risks since they are the medical professional, not the patient.

And more than half of patients are turning up to doctors, confused about the benefits and risks of the drug they saw in an ad. The doctor tries to clarify the risks, but feel the need to give something to the patient anyway.

The only benefit of the advert here, is that they are actually talking to a doctor. But they don't understand the benefits of the drug, and they don't understand the risks of the drug, they just want something they saw on TV.

Post reply on HN