Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obesity and diabetes • Hacker News Board

Re: Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obesity and diabetes

#181

Post by jmull » Sun, Oct 22, 2017, 2:02 AM UTC

sn9 wrote: post #155

Sugar's role in diabetes seems likely to be true, but to say that CICO is false and a mutually exclusive explanation compared to the way in which insulin affects one's metabolism is empirically false [0]. Taubes would be hard pressed to explain how you could lose weight on a diet of Twinkies or how those subsisting on high carb, low fat, low protein diets that fail to meet their caloric needs in famine-afflicted regi…

The issue with CICO isn’t that it’s wrong. It’s that it isn’t helping us solve the epidemic of metabolic disorders.

While true (it’s simply a restatement of a law of thermodynamics after all) It’s an unhelpful, apparently mostly irrelevant model.

Re: Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obesity and diabetes

#182

Post by neves » Sun, Oct 22, 2017, 2:07 AM UTC

ilamont wrote: post #72

kichuku wrote: post #10

I would like to share an anecdote. In March 2016, I was weighing 96 kilograms (211.64 pounds). I made just one change during that time which is to stop having anything with sugar. I continued to take other natural sweeteners like jaggery and honey. The rest of my diet remained the same and my activity level remained the same ( I work in IT as a network engineer in a desk job) In October 2016, I was weighing 72 kilos…

More anecdata: * I did the same at the beginning of the summer, cutting out most processed sugar (glucose) and corn syrup while increasing fruit intake (but not by much). * I also starting skipping meals/moving meal times around, and eating less at dinner, but otherwise did not change the things that I ate. * I am exercising a lot less than before, owing to a foot injury in the middle of the summer. I've dropped near…

Exercising less can also make you loose weight. Muscles are heavier than fat, if you loose them you'll get lighter.

Re: Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obesity and diabetes

#183

Post by swsieber » Sun, Oct 22, 2017, 2:09 AM UTC

Fnoord wrote: post #143

aaron-lebo wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tried keto for a very short time, found it difficult to meet such dietary restrictions. Not gonna be shocked if we find out in 10 years that eating keto is actually horrible for your cholesterol or something, and then it's gonna be too late for the early adopters. As an anecdote, I noticed some people advocating that diet literally eat bacon and steak all the time and justify it. They're probably gonna have major h…

Not many people can afford 2000 calories of steak every day. Result from anecdotal evidence: "eating steak causes health loss." > Most of our popular models of diet are basically unscientific quackery. The most conventional holds up: the one that consuming too many calories causes one to gain weight, and consuming not enough calories causes one to lose weight. If I'd go with what's popular on my gf's FB, I'd end up b…

> They're just hypes in certain circles like silicon valley.

Which is probably one of the most widely spread culture on the internet ( I think ), by virtue of being highly tuned into tech.

In this day and age, minority opinions greatly magnify themselves to seem like they are a) common and b) widely accepted.

Diets are no exception, some more than others.

Re: Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obesity and diabetes

#184

Post by sn9 » Sun, Oct 22, 2017, 2:13 AM UTC

jmull wrote: post #181

sn9 wrote: post #155

Sugar's role in diabetes seems likely to be true, but to say that CICO is false and a mutually exclusive explanation compared to the way in which insulin affects one's metabolism is empirically false [0]. Taubes would be hard pressed to explain how you could lose weight on a diet of Twinkies or how those subsisting on high carb, low fat, low protein diets that fail to meet their caloric needs in famine-afflicted regi…

The issue with CICO isn’t that it’s wrong. It’s that it isn’t helping us solve the epidemic of metabolic disorders. While true (it’s simply a restatement of a law of thermodynamics after all) It’s an unhelpful, apparently mostly irrelevant model.

How is it unhelpful? For the obese, it presents the simplest and most actionable advice that has the highest relevance to their most pressing health problem.

Re: Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obesity and diabetes

#185

Post by mohaine » Sun, Oct 22, 2017, 2:14 AM UTC

cheald wrote: post #144

WillPostForFood wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are getting lost in semantics, because if you are saying: there are calories ("sugars") which make it much easier to gain weight. Then a calorie isn't a calorie.

Calories are calories (it's literally a measure of energy!) The packages they come in will effect hormonal and psychological responses differently which may affect the amount you would take in if intake is left unmonitored. To that extent, it's wise to take in foods which don't nudge you towards over consuming, but if you can be disciplined and take in a quantity of energy less than you expend on a consistent basis,…

Sure, it is a measure of energy, but it is not a measure of of how much energy we as humans will utilize from the food. Some calories are much more efferent for us to extract than others. Some can't be extracted at all.

Re: Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obesity and diabetes

#186

Post by grzm » Sun, Oct 22, 2017, 2:16 AM UTC

sn9 wrote: post #184

jmull wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue with CICO isn’t that it’s wrong. It’s that it isn’t helping us solve the epidemic of metabolic disorders. While true (it’s simply a restatement of a law of thermodynamics after all) It’s an unhelpful, apparently mostly irrelevant model.

How is it unhelpful? For the obese, it presents the simplest and most actionable advice that has the highest relevance to their most pressing health problem.

The CICO message has been part of diet advice for decades. If hearing this message in and of itself were helpful, one would expect that we wouldn't be observing the current levels of obesity in the US. The biology and human behavior are more complex than that.

Re: Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obesity and diabetes

#187

Post by sn9 » Sun, Oct 22, 2017, 2:23 AM UTC

grzm wrote: post #186

sn9 wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it unhelpful? For the obese, it presents the simplest and most actionable advice that has the highest relevance to their most pressing health problem.

The CICO message has been part of diet advice for decades. If hearing this message in and of itself were helpful, one would expect that we wouldn't be observing the current levels of obesity in the US. The biology and human behavior are more complex than that.

There are simpler explanations. People have no idea how much they consume and frequently underestimate how much they eat. Inaccurate measurement and non-existent tracking systems sabbotage people's attempts at modifying their weight.

This is frequently solved by getting people to buy a food scale and weigh everything they eat for a few weeks and calculating the actual caloric content of their food. Food scales are frequently all people need to make real and persistent changes to their weight.

The biology isn't complex enough that ignoring CICO or telling people that it's wrong is useful or helpful and not harmful.

Re: Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obesity and diabetes

#188

Post by grzm » Sun, Oct 22, 2017, 2:34 AM UTC

sn9 wrote: post #187

grzm wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The CICO message has been part of diet advice for decades. If hearing this message in and of itself were helpful, one would expect that we wouldn't be observing the current levels of obesity in the US. The biology and human behavior are more complex than that.

There are simpler explanations. People have no idea how much they consume and frequently underestimate how much they eat. Inaccurate measurement and non-existent tracking systems sabbotage people's attempts at modifying their weight. This is frequently solved by getting people to buy a food scale and weigh everything they eat for a few weeks and calculating the actual caloric content of their food. Food scales are fr…

> People have no idea how much they consume and frequently underestimate how much they eat. Inaccurate measurement and non-existent tracking systems sabbotage people's attempts at modifying their weight.

I agree, and believe this is part of it. People aren't paying attention to what they eat. This is specifically why understanding human behavior is important and that only repeating CICO is not useful.

If people are interested in understanding how metabolism regulation works and finds that it's useful in modifying their diet to help them be healthier, that should be encouraged, shouldn't it? If understanding how different foods affect hunger, insulin levels, diabetes, muscle gain, fat loss, I think that should be a good thing. If someone focuses purely on calories, they can easily deprive themselves of nutrients and hungry, making it hard to keep themselves on the diet and failing to get or keep themselves healthy.

Re: Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obesity and diabetes

#189

Post by sn9 » Sun, Oct 22, 2017, 2:45 AM UTC

grzm wrote: post #188

sn9 wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are simpler explanations. People have no idea how much they consume and frequently underestimate how much they eat. Inaccurate measurement and non-existent tracking systems sabbotage people's attempts at modifying their weight. This is frequently solved by getting people to buy a food scale and weigh everything they eat for a few weeks and calculating the actual caloric content of their food. Food scales are fr…

> People have no idea how much they consume and frequently underestimate how much they eat. Inaccurate measurement and non-existent tracking systems sabbotage people's attempts at modifying their weight. I agree, and believe this is part of it. People aren't paying attention to what they eat. This is specifically why understanding human behavior is important and that only repeating CICO is not useful. If people are i…

You can't claim that understanding how metabolism works is useful and suggest that understanding how CICO works isn't useful in the same breadth.

Understanding CICO is sufficient to derive all useful, actionable advice for healthy weight management (e.g., maybe you're measuring wrong, stop eating calorically dense foods, eat foods that are more satiating, etc.).

Understanding the difference in how fructose is metabolised compared to glucose is majoring in the minors and is far less likely to help someone achieve their goals.

CICO is the most important factor and the simplest to understand. Suggesting people teach themselves biochemistry and physiology without understanding the basics is silly and far less realistic. Ignoring CICO is setting people up for failure which will discourage compliance and further improvements.

Re: Sugar alters hormones and metabolism, sets stage for obesity and diabetes

#190

Post by grzm » Sun, Oct 22, 2017, 2:51 AM UTC

sn9 wrote: post #189

grzm wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People have no idea how much they consume and frequently underestimate how much they eat. Inaccurate measurement and non-existent tracking systems sabbotage people's attempts at modifying their weight. I agree, and believe this is part of it. People aren't paying attention to what they eat. This is specifically why understanding human behavior is important and that only repeating CICO is not useful. If people are i…

You can't claim that understanding how metabolism works is useful and suggest that understanding how CICO works isn't useful in the same breadth. Understanding CICO is sufficient to derive all useful, actionable advice for healthy weight management (e.g., maybe you're measuring wrong, stop eating calorically dense foods, eat foods that are more satiating, etc.). Understanding the difference in how fructose is metabol…

> You can't claim that understanding how metabolism works is useful and suggest that understanding how CICO works isn't useful in the same breadth.

I believe you're misreading what I'm saying: I'm saying that only repeating CICO is not helpful. That itself does not give people the tools they need to be able to maintain health. You yourself point this out in saying it's "sufficient to derive all useful, actionable advice for healthy weight management": Not everyone is able to derive things from first principles.

Perhaps we're talking past each other. I'm more satisfied understanding human behavior and metabolism regulation than only repeating CICO and expecting people to derive everything else from there.