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A Test of Police Body Cameras Defies Expectations

nytimes.com

231–240 of 353 posts

Re: A Test of Police Body Cameras Defies Expectations

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The body cams need to serialize their stream to a special satellite or cell provider, and a chain of auditable custody needs to be preserved at multiple data centers. Police cannot be the masters of their own footage. It needs to exist beyond bribery, lust and international intimidation. It needs to be out of their hands and into a web of trust, as soon as the photons hit the sensors. Then it comes down to jamming, t…

We just need to establish a legal precept that if the body cam footage isn't there to corroborate the cops' story, we assume the worst and they get held accountable for anything a plaintiff is able to plausibly allege. Under that scenario, most cops would become the biggest advocates for e.g., redundancies, backups and transparency.

This seems to abolish the right to be "innocent until proven guilty". It's always possible to allege a crime that no one can prove didn't happen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot), so without a presumption of innocence, the system essentially puts the accused at the mercy of the accuser.

Re: A Test of Police Body Cameras Defies Expectations

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do cops care about a defense lawyer's "easy payday?"

They care when the chief has to explain to the city council why they need an extra $2 million in the budget this year. Shit rolls downhill.

That money isn't paid out of the budget, they have insurance for it.

Re: A Test of Police Body Cameras Defies Expectations

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We just need to establish a legal precept that if the body cam footage isn't there to corroborate the cops' story, we assume the worst and they get held accountable for anything a plaintiff is able to plausibly allege. Under that scenario, most cops would become the biggest advocates for e.g., redundancies, backups and transparency.

This seems to abolish the right to be "innocent until proven guilty". It's always possible to allege a crime that no one can prove didn't happen ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot ), so without a presumption of innocence, the system essentially puts the accused at the mercy of the accuser.

Given there aren't a lot of citizens randomly stopping officers to accuse them of crimes... I don't see a problem. The ISSUE right now is exactly what you've described - officers accusing citizens of crimes they didn't commit without proof beyond "their word".

As someone who has been falsely accused by an officer (fortunately a minor traffic violation that I was able to make go away by paying a small fine), I've lost any faith that officers are there to serve their constituents.

Re: A Test of Police Body Cameras Defies Expectations

#234
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firstly, you're critiquing a study based on a journalist's write-up about it. Secondly, you're essentially making an epistemological argument. You could apply your core argument to almost anything and come up with the assertion that the research is invalid. "Researchers tracked use-of-force incidents" -> "Researchers tracked reports of use-of-force incidents, which is factually rather different. "Researchers observed…

> Firstly, you're critiquing a study based on a journalist's write-up about it. I'm critiquing a political abuse of a bogus study and also the bogus study itself, based on the study's language and based on the political website referenced by the journalist's write-up, by actually reading them. You can see them too at http://bwc.thelab.dc.gov/ and http://bwc.thelab.dc.gov/static/files/supplementary-material... > This…

> I'm critiquing a political abuse of a bogus study and also the bogus study itself...

It's disappointing but not surprising that you accuse them of "political abuse". Your own criticism seems clearly political because you start with the premise that it's literally impossible that they are correct.

I actually agree with you that the results here feel suspect because they run so counter to my expectations, but I find it sad that this is how you put forward your agenda.

> Bullshit. I'm telling you that correlation doesn't imply causation and rather than saying "oh yeah, I heard that once somewhere, it was probably important" your response is "but physics jargon".

"Correlation is not causation" is a great response to erroneous conclusions drawn from studies constructed to establish correlation. It's a really poor response to a study designed to establish causation. If you believe that it is in general impossible to establish causation, then you are indeed just making an epistemological argument.

If you have a problem with the construction of the study and believe it doesn't establish causation, because of X, Y, and Z, then provide that criticism. Don't assert that it's wrong because measurement is impossible. Even if we accept that claim as true, it's still a useless criticism because it means the best we can do is our indirect measurements and we are left with no option except to optimize for those.

> They are measuring one thing and making, and these next words are key, an unreasonable leap onto something very different.

It's not an unreasonable leap. A priori, many people would agree that a reduction in police use of force would result in a reduction of reports of use of force by both police and civilians. Previous studies indicated the same a posteriori. Clearly many people find the leap very reasonable. I believe the only reason you find it unreasonable is that you don't like the conclusion it leads to in this study.

> In your boson world nobody ever doesn't report something that happened. In the real world that is very clearly false.

Not sure what you're talking about. Erroneous measurements happen all the time in the scientific world. It was really hard for scientists to prove the existence of the Higgs boson because it's so hard to even detect.

> They assume that reporting rates are predictable for different circumstances just by guessing, which is not a reliable assumption.

Where does this claim come from? Did I miss something where the authors claimed that reporting would definitely be 100% consistent?

And where does the support for your claim that reported rates are essentially constant regardless of actual rates come from?

> And on top of all of that, this report is likely going to be used as a giant war banner in the police union's fight to reduce the use of body cameras....

And here you go with the actual justification for your criticism. You don't have a scientific criticism. You have a political one. You want to discredit the study because you don't like the conclusion.

Maybe this study is flawed, but you don't establish that by asserting that it's impossible to even measure or by claiming (without any evidence of your own) that there's no link between actual use of force and reports of use of force.

> It arbitrarily privileges "reported uses of force" as the target of attention rather than "witnessed crimes and other violations".

Exactly how do you imagine that you would track "witnessed crimes and other violations" in absence of reports of those things?

Re: A Test of Police Body Cameras Defies Expectations

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We just need to establish a legal precept that if the body cam footage isn't there to corroborate the cops' story, we assume the worst and they get held accountable for anything a plaintiff is able to plausibly allege. Under that scenario, most cops would become the biggest advocates for e.g., redundancies, backups and transparency.

This seems to abolish the right to be "innocent until proven guilty". It's always possible to allege a crime that no one can prove didn't happen ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot ), so without a presumption of innocence, the system essentially puts the accused at the mercy of the accuser.

I was actually thinking of it as an extension of the presumption of innocence on behalf of the citizenry and keeping the burden of proof on the government as a check against it's powers. Cops are citizens too but there is some level of surrender of your individual rights e.g., when you join the military. It'd be similar to that.

Another thought is the panopticon: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon . You don't necessarily need to stream and record every cop's cam, just randomize it without indicating to the cops who's getting recorded or when.

Re: A Test of Police Body Cameras Defies Expectations

#236
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a recognition that there are complications beyond the simplistic picture one can get without personal experience. This often includes time, budget, and policy constraints the individual has no control over.

If airline pilots crashed half of their flights we would be right to criticize them. Having a hard job is no excuse for doing it poorly.

And if police catastrophically fail half their interactions, we should criticize them, too.

We only end up discussing the tiny fraction of police cases where things go badly.

Re: A Test of Police Body Cameras Defies Expectations

#237
post #155
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In many (most?) US jurisdictions, bodycam video is cloud-hosted by Taser.[0] I don't have direct experience, but I'd bet Taser doesn't let podunk police departments really "erase" video. And given the volume, you'd think it's got to be built on AWS or another big cloud provider, with pretty good forensic tools. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/13/business/taser-internatio...

>I don't have direct experience, but I'd bet Taser doesn't let podunk police departments really "erase" video. The NYTimes article you posted hints at an uncomfortably cozy relationship between Taser, law enforcement and local governments... Yet as Taser works to sell cameras and software to more departments, it is coming under fire for questionable business practices. In some instances, it has paid police chiefs to…

Oh, don't think I'm suggesting they're impartial stewards. But they should have some incentive not to be the co-defendant in every police assault case where the video goes missing.

It is probably easy for a records clerk to export redacted video, but should be hard for them to really delete video, or tamper without leaving a trail.

Some customers might justify the risk, I suppose. But if they were to regularly winkwink at cops deleting video evidence, they'd get walloped.

Re: A Test of Police Body Cameras Defies Expectations

#238

I was recently the victim of an armed kidnapping, escaping only by jumping out of my own car from the driver seat while in gear with the gunman in the passenger seat. By the time the police arrived, my attacker escaped in my car and the first words out of the sergeants mouth was “cut the crap, quit jerking us around, what really happened?” Sure enough I was in a jurisdiction that only two months prior was equipped wi…

I guess citizens will have to be the ones wearing body cameras.

I hear about people recording the police with their phones now and again, and it always makes me think of the balance between

1. If I have my phone on and recording, the police can seize it (ie, grab it from me). At best, I'd be able to turn it off, but it's been shown multiple times that they can force me to provide my fingerprint to unlock it.

2. If I turn my phone off (so they need my pin, which they can't force from me), I can't record.

Re: A Test of Police Body Cameras Defies Expectations

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We just need to establish a legal precept that if the body cam footage isn't there to corroborate the cops' story, we assume the worst and they get held accountable for anything a plaintiff is able to plausibly allege. Under that scenario, most cops would become the biggest advocates for e.g., redundancies, backups and transparency.

This seems to abolish the right to be "innocent until proven guilty". It's always possible to allege a crime that no one can prove didn't happen ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot ), so without a presumption of innocence, the system essentially puts the accused at the mercy of the accuser.

Police need to be held to a higher standard than citizens. Currently, they're held to a ludicrously lower one. That has obvious, demonstrable consequences.

Re: A Test of Police Body Cameras Defies Expectations

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess citizens will have to be the ones wearing body cameras.

I hear about people recording the police with their phones now and again, and it always makes me think of the balance between 1. If I have my phone on and recording, the police can seize it (ie, grab it from me). At best, I'd be able to turn it off, but it's been shown multiple times that they can force me to provide my fingerprint to unlock it. 2. If I turn my phone off (so they need my pin, which they can't force f…

I would stop using your fingerprint to unlock.
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