Live data from Hacker News

My Journey to a Better Language Learning System

chatterbug.com

61–70 of 134 posts

Re: My Journey to a Better Language Learning System

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say this snarkily, but I don’t see what is wrong with someone growing up and wanting to try to use coding to solve problems relevant to their stage of life. It turns out some problems are complex, but so what? I’ve been working on “programming interfaces for beginners” for 12 years and still haven’t succeeded. That’s not because I’m dumb, nor is everyone who thought it would be easy and failed. It’s because there…

The problem is the attitude "this problem is unsolved and no-one seems to be working on it. I'll fix it, even though I'm not an expert in the domain... because coding fix everything". Don't get me wrong, this is a very common problem for engineers (I'm an engineer and I fall into that trap every now and then). But from the post, what's lacking is actually talking and working head-head with teachers and linguists and…

I think the problem with this view is that academic linguistics has a limited amount of useful information to tell people who are trying to learn a language. Absolutely people learning a language need informed linguistic advice. And our understanding of language learning is much less rudimentary than it used to be. But linguistics is a multidisciplinary, multiparadigmatic field in which there is serious disagreement over some very basic questions. Dost of the good language apps definitely include that.

But a lot of language learning is about keeping up motivation and finding ways to access and practice the target language more often, to bring down the barriers to using and communicating in the language. Good software tools can help there, because we can't all afford personal tutors at $30/hour.

Re: My Journey to a Better Language Learning System

#62
post #56

Language learning apps are step 5 in the ten step process of achieving programmer hubris nirvana. 1) I'm in college and I'm going to build an app to easily buy and sell books 2) Off campus housing is hard, I'm going to build an app to find roommates 3) Splitting bills with roommates is hard, I'm going to build an app for cost splitting 4) All my previous apps sucked because they weren't social, I'm going to build a s…

Could you add expected stage half-life? I'm stack @8 and would like to advance to 9 ASAP.

Yes, getting a better overview of what your progress and work left to do in each level is on our short list. For now, you can always contact us with the Intercom button in the bottom right if you have issues like this and we can see if something is weird or manually advance you. Thanks!

Re: My Journey to a Better Language Learning System

#63

Personally, I would love to learn a language by watching movies/videos with 3 subtitle tracks: (1) What they are speaking - IN their script (this is called SLS: Same-Language-Subtitling and has been quite successful for literacy programs for one's own language) (2) What they are speaking - IN my script (3) What they MEAN - IN my language (i.e. translation) Data for (1) is easy to find. (2) could theoretically be gene…

Yes!

I found https://github.com/oaprograms/lingo-player, but it seems to have a broken dependency.

For (1), I have considered using https://cloud.google.com/speech/ because it's so cheap. I am learning Cantonese, and Cantonese subtitles virtually don't exist – frustratingly, everything is in Mandarin.

Re: My Journey to a Better Language Learning System

#64

I've always wanted to be fluent in a second language and have tried in the past, but I always end up with the same problem. While I recognize that the only way to gain conversational skills is to actually have conversations, they terrify me. Engaging in small talk with strangers in my native language is hard enough. Trying to do it in a second language seems impossible. Even watching the demo video from the link, all…

This is the problem I always had with tandems and some tutors as well. One of the things I like about using our system is that all the exercises are guided.

They have instructions, you can advance at any time, there is always an explicit task or situation or game to play. Sometimes the tutors read a story and then ask you questions about it, sometimes there are word games, sometimes there are situations where you're told what you need to do and you just try to role play. Always after you've at least minimally learned the vocab and grammar needed to do it.

Nowadays I will sometimes wander and just have a random conversation with a tutor, but when it's finished, I just click 'Next' and get a new thing to try. It can be a little scary at first, as any in-person meeting or class environment often is the first time, but it becomes fun and comfortable pretty fast. You really aren't expected to be interesting (as many of my tutors can attest, I rarely am :) )

The compilation video (is just from the video feeds, but I removed the actual exercises we were doing. It's entirely guided. These were just sort of random conversations that I happened to venture into as an aside from the main curriculum as I got more familiar with the tutors as a way to illustrate how my spontaneous conversational skills improved over time.

Re: My Journey to a Better Language Learning System

#65
@schacon Interesting post. I agree that language-learning is more of a marathon than a sprint. As someone who speaks several languages[1], it was interesting to read about your perception of how polyglots learn languages. You picked up on some good things (flashcards and these days spaced repetition learning programs since vocab is critical, multiple different tools and books, online tutors) but you didn't mention a characteristic that most polyglots I know share[2]: an excellent foundation in the grammar of their own language, and the inclination to spend the time necessary to build a good foundation in the grammar of whatever language they are learning. I'm sure there are exceptions to this rule, but it seems to be enough of a trend that it's worth mentioning.

Some people promote the idea of learning a language "naturally" through an immersive environment. Although immersing yourself in the language is critical once you've picked up a strong foundation, I've personally known very few people who have learned a language to near-native fluency as an adult by simply jumping into a new language environment. Kids do this all the time, but the way most adults successfully learn a new language is different from the way children do it. I've watched some people waste a lot of time trying to speak to native speakers of a language they're learning without having any kind of foundation in vocabulary and grammar. They would have done well to spend at least a portion of that time picking up a basic vocab through flashcards and learning grammar fundamentals of the foreign language in question.

And although I'm sure there are exceptions to this rule, most polyglots I know are fascinated by grammar, in addition to having a strong interest in phonology and speech/accents.

So to anyone who has tried and failed to learn a foreign language as an adult and is thinking of giving it another try, I recommend picking up both a review book on the grammar of their native language, as well as a basic but complete grammar of the language they are targeting. Spend some time with these books along with Anki and the language-learning apps, and then go out and immerse yourself in another language environment, either through online language communities, or living/traveling abroad.

And one last type for new language learners: be sure to study idioms and phrases when you use Anki or whatever flashcard program, and not just simple words. Having a good stock of idioms is critical to fluent conversation.

1. At one time, fully fluent in 4 languages, now 2 are rusty but I'm picking them and another back up. I've also enjoyed an intermediate level of fluency in an additional 5-6 languages at one time or another. (I've also worked as a professional interpreter (2 years) and translator (10 years))

2. The only exceptions to this rule have been people who have learned 3-4 languages as children, but even they have a much better knowledge of grammar than most Americans I know.

Re: My Journey to a Better Language Learning System

#66
post #34

I'm curious who else in the community here learned a new language to either comfort or fluency and how they did it.

I studied English at school from 8yrs old to 18, and I was really bad at it. After graduating high-school I decided to work on it (I wanted to work in IT, and english was a must-have). That was around the time when DVDs were really taking over, and it was now really easy to watch movies in original version (as opposed to the dubbed versions). So I started watching movies in English. Like a lot. I'm talking 3 to 5 movies a day every day for months. I took a year off between high school and college.

After that, I was fluent in listening, I moved to an english speaking country and started working on the speaking part. I was less intimidated since I could understand perfectly so I wasn't shy about speaking and exercising my pronunciation. I'm now fluent in English and live in the US. Most natives I talk to have no idea I'm a foreigner. Usually after an hour of conversation they start wondering which part of America I'm from and they're always surprised to hear I'm from Europe.

Re: My Journey to a Better Language Learning System

#67
post #57

Learning a language is simple. Immerse yourself in the environment where everyone speaks the language (travel to that country) and force yourself to speak that language only at all times. This is the key. I’ve learned German like that in two months.

I would argue that immersing yourself in a native environment is hardly a simple thing. It's expensive - often in money, but always as an impact to your life. If you have a job, or spouse, or kids or pets, how does this work. I've actually done this and each one of these things is a huge problem. If you're a young, single person who can work remotely or doesn't need a job, then maybe, but that's not most people. If you do need a job, getting a visa to work in a new country is also non-trivial and often impossible.

It's also not just on you to "force yourself to speak a language". You need someone to listen to you. When you know 20 words of a language, cornering anyone to practice with is difficult and somewhat unfair. You need to know or meet some people who care enough about you to have some really horribly slow and boring conversations for a very long time while you improve. If you're not paying them for that time or otherwise reciprocating, then it can be a somewhat selfish thing to ask them to do that for a long time.

It's also very hard to pick up vocabulary implicitly from conversations unless you have some base. My German is good enough now that if I don't understand a word I can ask them to rephrase it using other words and I can often get it. Children can do so just from environmental and contextual input often, but it takes them _years_. So you still have to spend a lot of time studying and building vocab on your own in order to try out.

This method certainly can work, as I did mention in the blog post, but it's far from simple.

Re: My Journey to a Better Language Learning System

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say this snarkily, but I don’t see what is wrong with someone growing up and wanting to try to use coding to solve problems relevant to their stage of life. It turns out some problems are complex, but so what? I’ve been working on “programming interfaces for beginners” for 12 years and still haven’t succeeded. That’s not because I’m dumb, nor is everyone who thought it would be easy and failed. It’s because there…

The problem is the attitude "this problem is unsolved and no-one seems to be working on it. I'll fix it, even though I'm not an expert in the domain... because coding fix everything". Don't get me wrong, this is a very common problem for engineers (I'm an engineer and I fall into that trap every now and then). But from the post, what's lacking is actually talking and working head-head with teachers and linguists and…

The “even though I’m not an expert in the domain... because coding fix everything” part of your stereotype is not accurate in this case (see Scott’s reply), but even if it was, the approach and attitude you criticized is how some of the most original new solutions to tough problems have started. If someone’s bothered to make something, at least give them the benefit of neutrality by evaluating their actual output.

Re: My Journey to a Better Language Learning System

#69

Language learning apps are step 5 in the ten step process of achieving programmer hubris nirvana. 1) I'm in college and I'm going to build an app to easily buy and sell books 2) Off campus housing is hard, I'm going to build an app to find roommates 3) Splitting bills with roommates is hard, I'm going to build an app for cost splitting 4) All my previous apps sucked because they weren't social, I'm going to build a s…

you forgot laundry.

Mom doesn't do my laundry anymore; doing laundry sucks; the world desperately needs an uber-for-laundry app.

Re: My Journey to a Better Language Learning System

#70

@schacon Interesting post. I agree that language-learning is more of a marathon than a sprint. As someone who speaks several languages[1], it was interesting to read about your perception of how polyglots learn languages. You picked up on some good things (flashcards and these days spaced repetition learning programs since vocab is critical, multiple different tools and books, online tutors) but you didn't mention a…

Thanks for the great comment. I agree that you need to learn the grammar of a language. I personally have a pretty hard time internalizing grammar rules. Our head curriculum designer always makes fun of me because I want to ban tables of things (conjugations, etc) from the world. I can study and memorize it and then when I go to use it, totally miss and it's frustrating. But if I hear a sentence structure 30 times in a few weeks, I will often naturally start using it.

We try in our system to teach grammar through the same spaced repetition system - presenting a rule and then giving you a cloze test and spacing it the same as vocab. So we can know, for example, that your second person plural conjugation is weak and often missed, but your first person singular is strong because you always nail it. Then we can try to show you exercises that make you practice the weaker thing when you're in a live session, to reinforce it in a different environment and make sure you can produce it orally too.

Most recent research that I've seen, and the linguistics researchers that I've talked to, seem to conclude that there is little difference between being implicitly and explicitly taught grammar. That you don't need be explicitly explained the rule to use it consistently, but that the important thing is that your focus is brought to mistakes in form and you make an effort to improve those mistakes. There are a hundred studies on this and they all seem to come out slightly differently and generally not very significantly. That said, learners often like to know the rules, even if it's not significantly helpful for long term retention and production.

I would caution against recommending that people pick up a grammar book unless it's an incredibly good one. Most are dry and difficult and assume you know the vocabulary of linguistics, which most people don't. As we said, language is a marathon and it's hard to stick with if you're immediately and mind-numbingly bored, which grammar books are good at. I personally prefer to get communicative and work on fixing my grammar as I go, since it gives me momentum.

I like the middle ground that Chatterbug has taken. The grammar testing is interactive and you can reinforce good patterns when talking with human beings in a spaced way. I know my grammar is in many cases wrong when speaking in German, but most people don't seem to find the mistakes I make at my level particularly problematic, and it gives me time and confidence to focus on the forms that I'm getting wrong.

What's really funny to me is that watching my own videos right after I do a lesson, I notice many of my own grammar errors, because I'm hearing them and have time to think about them, but I don't always have time to pull stuff properly when in the heat of trying to formulate and speak a sentence in real time. But I belive that helps me improve faster and stay motivated.

Post reply on HN