Live data from Hacker News

My Journey to a Better Language Learning System

chatterbug.com

21–30 of 134 posts

Re: My Journey to a Better Language Learning System

#21

I have spent the last 10 months learning italian, spending a total of 7 weeks in the country, 150 hours studying, and 85 hours speaking on iTalki. I have been using the method's described in Fluent Forever[1] and they have been working extremely well for me. I have a speaking partner that I speak with 3-5 times a week for 1 hour each time (If you want to learn italian email me, he is awesome), and I keep track of lit…

What's a typical going rate for a speech partner?

Re: My Journey to a Better Language Learning System

#23
I'd love to see more tools go into the space of learning what I consider to be the farthest thing from English. That's like Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc. There's a lot more that goes into learning these languages due to differences in pronunciation, characters, and sentence structure.

I know the demand is often placed on the romance and germanic languages, but they're often easy enough. You can usually bring along your own character set, which dramatically eases the transition into something new.

Re: My Journey to a Better Language Learning System

#24
post #21

I have spent the last 10 months learning italian, spending a total of 7 weeks in the country, 150 hours studying, and 85 hours speaking on iTalki. I have been using the method's described in Fluent Forever[1] and they have been working extremely well for me. I have a speaking partner that I speak with 3-5 times a week for 1 hour each time (If you want to learn italian email me, he is awesome), and I keep track of lit…

What's a typical going rate for a speech partner?

7-15/hour for non "teachers"

Re: My Journey to a Better Language Learning System

#25
I'm a fan of a method of language learning called TPR (Total Physical Response).[1][2][3] It is by far the fastest and easiest way I know of learning vocabulary and grammar.

In a nutshell, with TPR the teacher gives the student a command in the target language, demonstrates the action the command is asking for, repeats the command and finally the student copies the action.

For example, if English was the target language, the teacher could say "sit down", then sit down themselves, then once again say "sit down" and the student would copy the action by sitting down. This can then be repeated for "stand up", for "pick up the fork", or any other arbitrarily complex and sophisticated command.

As you've no doubt noticed, the commands are given in grammatically correct sentences, in context. Grammar is not explicitly taught, however. It is implicitly taught and implicitly learned.

What makes this method work really well is that when you learn words and grammar, you're not doing it with just your mind and maybe some visual cues, you're using your body and doing so in a specific physical context (the place where you're learning), associating what you're learning with parts of that place. It's somewhat analogous to using a memory palace to learn, only without any extra effort of constructing the palace or imaging placing things you want to learn there. With TPR you actually physically interact with the things you learn in that space.

Another great thing is that a TPR teacher need not have any special training in education or really even in the method. TPR takes maybe a minute or two to explain to anyone, so you can recruit helpers from any friends or acquaintances you have who know the target language and are willing to help, though if you want consistent lessons and dedication you'll probably want a professional tutor or teacher anyway.

TPR focuses on learning to understand, in emulation of the first step of a child's language learning process. Children first learn to understand, then to speak, then to read, and finally to write. TPR helps with the first part.

TPR has its limits, and it can't be used for all aspects of language learning, but it's fantastic for getting your language learning bootstrapped really quickly.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_physical_response

[2] - http://tola.maf.org/collect/missionb/index/assoc/HASH01da.di...

[3] - http://tola.maf.org/collect/missionb/index/assoc/HASH0162.di...

Re: My Journey to a Better Language Learning System

#26
I've done the Duolingo Spanish tree, and my feeling was the same as the author's regarding "% fluency," which I thought was kind of a joke. Especially for speaking and listening, there's really no substitute for immersion and real-life regular interactions.

But I do feel that Duolingo was honestly pretty good about helping me to read and write. In NYC there's a little ambient Spanish everywhere and I went into it not with the goal of being fluent, but just being able to read signs and understand a little bit here and there. (I haven't kept up with it and now I've forgotten a good chunk, but I'd say that's a different issue.)

At least in my case, it's also been a good entry point because it's free and convenient. I'm actually working on Duolingo's in-beta Czech tree (significant other's family is partially Czech) and it's actually been an inspiration for me to inquire about in-person classes, especially knowing that if I ever want to hold conversations, I will need to have real-life speaking experience. I probably wouldn't have done this if I hadn't started off on Duolingo and had some fun with it!

Re: My Journey to a Better Language Learning System

#27
post #19

I have been using http://www.languagetransfer.org to learn Spanish, and it is the best language system, aside from total immersion, I have ever used (I speak five language with varying degrees of fluency). It is a series of audio files, typically about 10 minutes each, and all you do is listen to them, answering questions when the instructor asks. German, Italian, Greek, Turkish, Swahili, Spanish, and others. It's a…

I just went to the site. From the description, it sounds like a similar method to that used in the Michel Thomas CD courses. I'll definitely try it!

Re: My Journey to a Better Language Learning System

#28

Language learning apps are step 5 in the ten step process of achieving programmer hubris nirvana. 1) I'm in college and I'm going to build an app to easily buy and sell books 2) Off campus housing is hard, I'm going to build an app to find roommates 3) Splitting bills with roommates is hard, I'm going to build an app for cost splitting 4) All my previous apps sucked because they weren't social, I'm going to build a s…

You say this snarkily, but I don’t see what is wrong with someone growing up and wanting to try to use coding to solve problems relevant to their stage of life. It turns out some problems are complex, but so what? I’ve been working on “programming interfaces for beginners” for 12 years and still haven’t succeeded. That’s not because I’m dumb, nor is everyone who thought it would be easy and failed. It’s because there…

Not meant to be snarky at all. Though I do wish my comment wasn't the top voted one. People, please upvote the other on topic comments or have the mods bury it.

FWIW this is basically my path. I've done pretty much all of them to some degree and a few in earnest. In fact I'm working on my own language learning "tool" while I wait around for #10.

Re: My Journey to a Better Language Learning System

#29
post #23

I'd love to see more tools go into the space of learning what I consider to be the farthest thing from English. That's like Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc. There's a lot more that goes into learning these languages due to differences in pronunciation, characters, and sentence structure. I know the demand is often placed on the romance and germanic languages, but they're often easy enough. You can usually bring along…

We will absolutely tackle these languages. We're releasing German for English speakers currently in order to learn better how more customers respond to the methods we're using, and German is more complex grammatically for English speakers than romance languages. Also, I didn't speak any German and I think it's important to use your product yourself.

Personally I want very much to return to Japanese myself some day. As I mentioned in the post, I studied it for several months. It is an interesting question of how best to approach learning kana and kanji, since that's a pretty difficult thing to get fast at. Memorizing a few hundred symbols isn't super hard, but getting so good at them that you can sight-read takes a lot of time and can be frustrating.

I would disagree that learning any language is easy enough, with or without learning a new writing system. That's sort of like saying that learning the piano is easy enough compared to the violin, just because it's always on key. It's still a lot of work before anyone wants to listen to you play.

No matter what language you learn, if you want to become somewhat fluent, you need to memorize several thousand abstract words, new sounds, new grammar rules, etc. It's always a lot of work in absolute terms. I only bring this up because I feel that it's somewhat harmful to say learning a language can be "easy". It often results in people trying to learn, inevitably finding out that it's still a lot of work and then giving up while blaming themselves for being "bad at languages".

Re: My Journey to a Better Language Learning System

#30

I highly recommend trying the app. The user interface is beautiful and the approach seems effective. I could actually see this being used in a German language school to supplement the curriculum, unlike pretty much every language app I've seen so far. I find Pimsleur to be a highly effective spoken language acquisition tool, but the writing/reading aspect is abysmal and quite demotivating. Chatterbug seems to be doin…

I can also vouch for the effectiveness of Pimsleur, especially when used in combination with Duolingo to take care of reading/writing and vocab. I had a much easier time when I landed in France because of all the time I put in listening/speaking along the recordings, which is frankly amazing because it's just a fixed set of 30 minute audio lessons, not customized at all!
Post reply on HN