New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary • Hacker News Board

Re: New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary

#411

Post by ryan_lane » Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 11:22 PM UTC

syshum wrote: post #374

rifung wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This makes the law seem even more ridiculous to me. Why is it more ridiculous? We already have laws against discrimination based on gender. If the issue isn't being solved, while being hands off, it seems natural to try something different. > It feels like they treating us like children incapable of tying our own shoes or something Well it does seem employers are incapable of eliminating the gender wage gap so perh…

Except for the fact that male and female pay for the same job, and experience level are statistically the same and there is no actual pay gap. The $0.79 on the $1 shit has been debunked a million times yet is still persists for some reason. The last good study I read showed a gap of something like 5% which was in the statistical margin and was largely accounted for by negotiation tactics. For an anecdote I (a male) e…

Moving jobs is the best way to get a large pay increase, especially if you're underpaid in your current job. Once you tell them how much you currently make, you've screwed yourself. This is a negotiating tactic used by employers to know how much they'll set as their upper bound for pay.

Your employer may have strict pay bounds set, but a lot of places don't. The pay can vary highly between candidates, especially if the candidates are weak negotiators. If you disclose your current salary, you're a weak negotiator, but employers put a lot of pressure on you to disclose it. I tend to tell employers that I'm not allowed to disclose my salary, which ends that part of the conversation, but most people don't know to do this.

This law benefits you just as much as it does women.

Re: New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary

#412

Post by yeukhon » Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 11:23 PM UTC

CodeWriter23 wrote: post #222

yeukhon wrote: post #206

NY has this in effect, but quite a few companies whose headquarters are based in NYC still ask applicants for their prior salary range on their applications. I hope this is just a lag, not ignoring the law deliberately. Also, we should outlaw employers from asking applications their desired salary range; the negotiation should happen after interviews. Employers should either specify a range or give a figure in the jo…

So as an employer, I should just waste mine and the applicant’s time and then find out they want more than I can possibly pay them? No thanks.

See what I wrote...?

> Also, we should outlaw employers from asking applications their desired salary range; the negotiation should happen after interviews. Employers should either specify a range or give a figure in the job description to save time.

Re: New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary

#413

Post by usaar333 » Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 11:25 PM UTC

FireBeyond wrote: post #380

usaar333 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can always write a salary lower than what you make.. Regardless, it's rarely in your own interest to conceal it unless you have privacy concerns. 1. Landlords are going to prefer candidates with higher salaries. 2. It's really unclear to me that landlords use your salary to determine rent increases. e.g. My rent has always been well under what could be covered by my salary and I'd move long before it reaches that…

> You can always write a salary lower than what you make.. It's... optimistic... that you think they're going to take you at face value when you do so, rather than requiring employment / income verification. And in most cases, "the information on this application is true to the best of my knowledge and I understand that my application may be rejected if I provide false information"...

The majority of landlords I've had haven't validated income information.

Re: New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary

#414

Post by khedoros1 » Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 11:31 PM UTC

goialoq wrote: post #314

icelancer wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct. Look at lottery winners and see how their lives are ruined when it becomes public knowledge that they are suddenly worth a lot of money.

this problem can be easily solved by removing the absurdity of a multi-million dollar lottery.

Lower stakes, lower tax income.

Re: New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary

#415

Post by gbacon » Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 11:31 PM UTC

yodsanklai wrote: post #231

Sangermaine wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>No thank you. >My salary is private. I do not want my family and friends to know how much I make. But have you thought about why you feel this way? I assume you are American, as am I, and so I understand we've been socialized by our culture to feel this way, but it really makes no sense. It's just a way to harm workers by keeping us from seeing when we're being screwed. I'd even go so far as to wager that this entir…

> I assume you are American, as am I, and so I understand we've been socialized by our culture to feel this way Just a unrelated comment. It's funny to hear that. In France there's a widespread stereotype that Americans are very open to talk about their salary.

The more open attitude you described seems to be on an upward trend in the generations born in the ’80s and beyond, but by and large we Americans do not talk money except with the closest family and of course one’s professionals. Even asking how much someone paid for a big-ticket purchase such as a house, car, horse, land, etc. is considered rude. I wouldn’t ask about something as small as a TV. Even verbalizing that someone is better off or little comments like “no big deal because they’re rich” is awkward for at least a couple of reasons: it leaves the “complimented” person feeling a little embarrassed and then also wondering why the other person is thinking about someone else’s finances.

My parents don’t know my income. My siblings don’t. I know a good bit about my mother-in-law’s income and net worth, but it’s because she is single and has asked for specific financial advice. My parents have recently been going through estate planning paperwork, and I suspect we may have discussions about finances in the next few years.

There are of course exceptions. Within niche hobbies, people may be a little more open after they know each other well about how much goods and services cost, but still not about income. A n00b walking up asking those sorts of questions may still get pushback — depends on how he asked.

I’m on the senior management team for a small technology company, but even though we can all see everything, we don’t discuss each other’s compensation directly and sort of pretend not to know.

Re: New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary

#416

Post by recursive » Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 11:31 PM UTC

rconti wrote: post #188

TearsInTheRain wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The goal is to narrow the gender wage gap. This makes the law seem even more ridiculous to me. Do we really need the government stepping into the hiring process like this and micromanaging? It feels like they treating us like children incapable of tying our own shoes or something

Apparently, yes, as this gap has not narrowed. This seems like a very low-impact way to ensure that your past salary history is not used against you. Why should it be? And what is the burden of simply disallowing a line of questioning, with no burdensome reporting or auditing requirements?

If the gap was virtually unmeasurable before, and it hasn't narrowed, it doesn't exactly seem like a case for more regulation.

Re: New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary

#417

Post by wahern » Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 11:33 PM UTC

CobrastanJorji wrote: post #258

alexanderstears wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do - I'm not sure how they licence it though or what data sources they use but I've seen that their data on high income households is the best in the business and shockingly accurate. However, I can't imagine the compliance nightmare that would exist around a process that lets HR people look up people's equifax information. If they get a full report, it could contain information about disabilities, national orig…

This makes me wonder. My employer has some customer data. We're very careful about not just letting any random employee access it without careful permission, auditing, logging, etc. Customer privacy is important to us. At Equifax, though, information about random people isn't customer data. It's the product. They give it to anyone who asks for money. Do they have any motivation to say J random employee can't just loo…

I believe it's quid pro quo. Equifax sells analytics services to corporations, and presumably you get a nice discount if you enter into an agreement to give them your information.

Likewise for credit scores--why else would a lender report data to Equifax if Equifax wasn't purchasing that data, either directly or as part of a larger contractual arrangement.

Re: New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary

#418

Post by throwanem » Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 11:34 PM UTC

burger_moon wrote: post #98

alexanderstears wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do - I'm not sure how they licence it though or what data sources they use but I've seen that their data on high income households is the best in the business and shockingly accurate. However, I can't imagine the compliance nightmare that would exist around a process that lets HR people look up people's equifax information. If they get a full report, it could contain information about disabilities, national orig…

"... disabilities, national origin, ethnicity, religion, and enough information to construct knowledge about sexual orientation." Don't employers already get most of that from doing in person interviews? Even through phone screens you can gather most of that information.

In the US, those are protected categories about which a prospective employer may not inquire. This point was explicitly called out and repeatedly reiterated in the training I received a few years back about how to participate in an interview from that side of the table.

Some of that information can be obvious, as in the case of visible disability and occasionally ethnicity. But it's not permissible to inquire in any case. And speaking from the side of the interviewee, such questions would immediately bring the interview to a not overly friendly close, both because the answers are none of any prospective employer's business, and because no company so insensate to liability concerns is likely destined to end up anywhere I care to go.

Re: New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary

#419

Post by khedoros1 » Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 11:36 PM UTC

greymeister wrote: post #365

Sangermaine wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>No thank you. >My salary is private. I do not want my family and friends to know how much I make. But have you thought about why you feel this way? I assume you are American, as am I, and so I understand we've been socialized by our culture to feel this way, but it really makes no sense. It's just a way to harm workers by keeping us from seeing when we're being screwed. I'd even go so far as to wager that this entir…

What culture is socialized to publicly disclose income?

Scandinavian, apparently. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned that tax filings in Norway are public information, and that they include salary and wealth information.

Re: New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary

#420

Post by khedoros1 » Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 11:46 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #214

Sangermaine wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>No thank you. >My salary is private. I do not want my family and friends to know how much I make. But have you thought about why you feel this way? I assume you are American, as am I, and so I understand we've been socialized by our culture to feel this way, but it really makes no sense. It's just a way to harm workers by keeping us from seeing when we're being screwed. I'd even go so far as to wager that this entir…

You make it sound as if Americans were more open about salaries as the rest of the world. My impressions up to now were opposite - Americans super open and others not much.

It's generally considered pretty rude to ask about income in America. My wife knows how much I make, of course. I told my parents what the pay was when I got my first career-job almost 10 years ago.

I've got vague impressions about some family members, friends, and coworkers, but nothing solid (unless I wanted to look up the pay scales for the few with government jobs, I guess). I could probably get accurate answers from close friends if I "needed" to, but it would be an uncomfortable conversation.