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Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

ag.ny.gov

201–210 of 217 posts

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why you're being downvoted. The epitome of so-called "fake news" is a newspaper reprinting stats a private corporation provides it in a matter-of-fact tone as the Times did here. Instead of writing, "More than 95 percent of its 1,000 graduates there have landed coding jobs." The Times should've written " Flatiron claims more than 95 percent of its 1,000 graduates there have landed coding jobs." Those two…

In fairness to the Times I wouldn't call this fake news; just slightly sloppy reporting. Fake news implies that it's deliberately misleading which this doesn't appear to be. They are simply repeating claims.

Flatiron was going around parading themselves as the only coding school to get their job statistics audited by a third party, so I don't necessarily blame the NYT for believing their claims.

Ironic that the only audited school is now the one having issues with misleading statistics.

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#202
post #104

Does anyone have a recommendation for a good bootcamp? I have an employee (graphic design) that has shown an aptitude in web development, but I do not have the time to devote to mentoring him. I can afford to send him to a bootcamp, but stories like this make me hesitant. Also, I have a front-end guy and a CS intern, who both could benefit from a SQL bootcamp (as another poster mentioned, team development, source con…

if you are only interested in onsite you should probably state where you are. i'm at a NY bootcamp and you can get the full details at impostor-syndrome.org

I am willing to send them out of state, so as long as we are in the contine tal US, it is a possibility.

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#203
post #6

"Between January and June 2017, Flatiron claimed that 98.5% of its students received employment less than 180 days after graduation and that Flatiron graduates had an average salary of $74,447. However, Flatiron did not disclose clearly and conspicuously that the 98.5% employment rate included not only full time salaried employees but also apprentices, contract employees and self-employed freelance workers, some who…

You're assuming bootcamps have been valuable. They haven't. They're complete garbage.

I've worked with bootcamp grads who have been pretty good, and hadn't already learned how to code. I also have friends who started out as non-coders, went through bootcamps, and are now doing really well.

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#204
post #63

An HN user's perspective as a Flatiron student, from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11734796 > One of the things that attracted me to Flatiron School was their audited jobs placement report. Very detailed statistics about how many students graduate, how long it takes them to find jobs, and how much they earn. I've never seen traditional colleges hold themselves to that standard of disclosure. Apparently these p…

Disclosure: I worked at Flatiron School from 2014-2016. I just want to point out the the numbers in the audited jobs report were never 'phony'. The report, which was available for download long before the settlement, clearly shows the %s of full-time salaried, full-time contract, part time and self employment used for the totals. My understanding of the settlement is that the AG's office was upset that the quoted num…

But it isn't just the ads or how outcomes are portrayed with a broad brush on the school website to prospective students. It's how the CEO of the Flatiron School answers direct questions from prospective students and interested others online. Here's a question from Quora answered by Adam Enbar, the CEO of The Flatiron School:

question: "The rise of the coding boot camp has resulted in a recognized glut of junior developers. How does Flatiron plan to distinguish its students in future?"

Enbar's answer, in part: "Look at salary data and remember what we’re talking about here: a three-month educational program that leads to a ~$75,000 salary (for Flatiron graduates; Course Report lists about $68k for a national average of bootcamp grads). The point at which there are more people prepared for those jobs than there are existing job openings, we will see salaries decrease—that’s supply and demand. But the “price” to hire a developer has not gone down because the supply has not grown enough. There may be a giant, growing supply of unqualified talent who are not getting jobs. But the supply of qualified talent? It’s been so far behind the demand that the salaries have not lowered. (It’s also worth noting that for a three-month education training program, given average salaries across this country, a $75,000 salary is insane! There is room for average salaries to come down and still provide a great ROI on bootcamps, so long as they are providing outcomes.)..." ---

He doesn't even answer the question! He challenges its "assumption" that there is a glut of junior dev talent out there now in a tightening market. He offers no information about how future Flatiron grads will distinguish themselves in this market except the implication that they will continue to get jobs and make money because these jobs are just so plentiful, and he implies that Flatiron grads are just so exceptionally skilled. "Skills Gap", the old refrain- but the issue of this recent ruling is that the Flatiron School's outcomes in this junior dev job-plentiful market aren't as super duper! as they make them out to be. (or since Enbar claims there are just so many junior dev jobs, perhaps Flatiron grads aren't distinguishing themselves within that pool?...which was the original question he was supposedly answering) Then, Enbar flatly states that his coding bootcamp leads to ~$75,000 salary job. He even says that it's "insane"!But do note the huge emphasis on supply and demand (and the salary lowering potential offered by a "distant" future glut) for these ~$75,000 jobs. It's a long answer, but within his answer, Enbar cites a graph from code.org highlighting everybody's favorite "skills gap". The problem is again conflict of interest with this graph and where it comes from- the source is not an uninterested party just doing a study. The founder/CEO of code.org, Hadi Partovi is an investor. Code.org itself is supported by donations from all of the big tech companies who would ever require coding talent. These companies have an interest in driving supply so that one day, salaries cold be lowered, and one day, H1B visas could be a thing of the past to solve this "skills gap" "problem". In fairness, toward the end, Enbar points to the outcomes report link from The Flatiron School, but the real deal is always hidden in the fine print. And there isn't even enough detail in the report to get a real handle on who gets what. That would be the "transparency" Enbar constantly 'advocates for". This ruling is just scratching the surface's surface of what is going on in these bootcamps and with this so-called "skills gap". We need an anonymous transparency platform. Enbar says he's all for real transparency when it comes to coding education and this "skills gap". So I'm guessing he won't mind.

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why you're being downvoted. The epitome of so-called "fake news" is a newspaper reprinting stats a private corporation provides it in a matter-of-fact tone as the Times did here. Instead of writing, "More than 95 percent of its 1,000 graduates there have landed coding jobs." The Times should've written " Flatiron claims more than 95 percent of its 1,000 graduates there have landed coding jobs." Those two…

In fairness to the Times I wouldn't call this fake news; just slightly sloppy reporting. Fake news implies that it's deliberately misleading which this doesn't appear to be. They are simply repeating claims.

We have become inured to the Times's anti-journalistic practice of "simply repeating claims" for years now, but it's still a problem worth pointing out.

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#206
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you're on board with the testing idea, but just think the tests should be more/longer.

And more intermittent. They cover things in medical school that are important (and tested for in class) that don't make their way to the final examination. Those are things a medical doctor should know. There are also labs that cover things that aren't going to be on the tests. There are practical examinations along the way. It's a whole big process and fairly standardized for a reason. It's not like many other disci…

I think a lot of us here are engineers who came from unrelated disciplines, or some even with no formal education at all beyond HS.

Other fields could be the same way, if they could get over the cultural and authoritarian bureaucracies. Architecture has less scientific foundations, but it's nearly impossible to do without the prestige of an academic institution.

Medicine is one of the most difficult fields, but I still think if you can demonstrate the same ability, you should be able to go to a residency program.

Academia has an unfair grip on modern credentials, and I think that is one of the great things about tech. For example, some of the very most brilliant modern innovators abandoned academia, Musk, Gates and Newell come to mind.

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#207
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And more intermittent. They cover things in medical school that are important (and tested for in class) that don't make their way to the final examination. Those are things a medical doctor should know. There are also labs that cover things that aren't going to be on the tests. There are practical examinations along the way. It's a whole big process and fairly standardized for a reason. It's not like many other disci…

I think a lot of us here are engineers who came from unrelated disciplines, or some even with no formal education at all beyond HS. Other fields could be the same way, if they could get over the cultural and authoritarian bureaucracies. Architecture has less scientific foundations, but it's nearly impossible to do without the prestige of an academic institution. Medicine is one of the most difficult fields, but I sti…

They can CLEP some classes and skip them. That sort of helps.

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#208
post #160

I wrote a pretty detailed breakdown of why this doesn’t actually mean what you think it means: https://medium.com/@turingschool/why-i-recommend-flatiron-sc...

Thank you for writing this. As someone who is about to apply to several software schools, the numerous and disparate opinions on HN about their quality / honesty / placement can really affect signal:noise. Sometimes people who appear to work in the industry say things that make it obvious they've done little or no research. Still their statements affect my deliberation even after parsing the numbers as carefully as I can--I'm an outsider making a calculation from a distance. Having followed you for some time since your CodeNewbie interview, I actually trust your words.

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#209
post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was saying the opposite.

Sorry, I completely misinterpreted that as "taking coursework" is the opposite of "independent learning"

Nah I meant more that bootcamps aren't the "proper path" for lack of a better phrase, that everyone goes to by default. It takes a certain amount of motivation to go out of the norm, or at least a certain amount of comfort with that risk, and that same mindset applies to entreprenership.

I say this as someone who just went to college because that's what you do and only got into software because my degree led to a $10/hr job which could not pay rent and student loans. If I had gotten 25 or 30 an hour there's a good chance I never would have had the impetus to teach myself anything

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a college student, I consistently put in 60-80+ hours a week into my studies. I know this is just one data point, but I think your estimate of what it takes to be a student is way off. However, I do take a lot of classes, and do research, so I may be on the upper end. (This is at a state school in the US.)

That's absolutely insane. I overloaded half my semesters and had a double major-double minor and didn't work anywhere near those hours. Maybe college has changed in the last 10 years, but I went to a very good school and had a drastically different experience. It's insane to believe you should be working more in college than after, let alone double. Seriously, that's insane. I've never heard of anything even resembli…

For a lot of the classes I took, this is what the hours looked like for my classmates as well. I do not think it's that unusual, even.
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