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Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

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Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#31

Post by hessproject »

lr4444lr wrote: post #10

I'm not the biggest job-hopper, but I've worked at 3 companies in the last 5 years in the NYC area, and have never once worked with, known anyone who's once worked with, or knew a hiring manager who would even consider someone whose only significant background in software was a coding bootcamp. For those who've experienced it, are they hired out of desperation into firms that need manpower and have enough more senior…

While I don't doubt some are hired out of desperation, most of the people I know hired out of bootcamps went to bigger companies that have the means (both funds and senior developers/mentors) and time to grow junior developers. While they don't have the CS background (notably data structures and algorithms), they usually have a step up on new grads in terms of collaborating on code, using modern frameworks, etc. They also generally take lower salaries than CS grads. So there's pros and cons to hiring bootcamp grads.

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#32

Post by kowdermeister »

iskander wrote: post #29
fredleblanc wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having done some work for a school that's jumped through these hoops, I believe that it's a different definition of "approved." It's not "choose one of these curricula we made up and do that," it's "show us your complete curriculum and defend how this makes a complete program."

The response times on approval can be pretty terrible and you get peppered with a lot of dumb requests by reviewers who don't actually understand the material. (I grew up around my parents' vocational school, board of education interactions looked totally insane)

This. I work at a coding bootcamp and last week we decided to include CSS Grids in the syllabus for the advanced HTML/CSS week and this week we are practicing it. This would never be possible if we needed our syllabus accredited.

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#33

Post by gist »

tyingq wrote: post #2

"Under today’s agreement, Flatiron will pay $375,000 in restitution to eligible graduates" That's better than a fine. Though, it does mention 1000 students total, so perhaps not enough.

And the $375k understates the 'total cost of ownership'. I am sure legal fees ran them anywhere from $50k to several hundred thousand additional.

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#36

Post by elliottcarlson »

jasonshen wrote: post #21
lr4444lr wrote: post #10

I'm not the biggest job-hopper, but I've worked at 3 companies in the last 5 years in the NYC area, and have never once worked with, known anyone who's once worked with, or knew a hiring manager who would even consider someone whose only significant background in software was a coding bootcamp. For those who've experienced it, are they hired out of desperation into firms that need manpower and have enough more senior…

All of the last 3 companies I've worked at in NYC (Percolate, Etsy, and a seed stage startup) have hired multiple engineers straight out of bootcamps. They often were hired into junior roles but if they proved themselves, they would advance. Bootcamp grads are hungry, they're usually taught how to code collaboratively and how to push code to production (skills that are usually less emphasized in CS curriculum). Bootc…

Same at Tumblr and Rent the Runway. As a hiring manager I have hired bootcamp grads that showed plenty of promise, and they have all worked out great.

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#37

Post by lettergram »

lr4444lr wrote: post #10

I'm not the biggest job-hopper, but I've worked at 3 companies in the last 5 years in the NYC area, and have never once worked with, known anyone who's once worked with, or knew a hiring manager who would even consider someone whose only significant background in software was a coding bootcamp. For those who've experienced it, are they hired out of desperation into firms that need manpower and have enough more senior…

My team specifically went to several bootcamps (three I believe) and interviewed at least 30 different people. Of them, only two of them barely passed the interview(s).

The one person we ended up hiring had previous experience in a very relevant field and we felt would add perspective. We recognized they would need some work and we all took / take time after work to work with them. They've improved a lot and now are a pretty potent developer (six months after we hired them).

I think that's probably a standard experience. Perhaps a 5% pass rate for new junior developers from bootcamps, followed up with a known need to develop them further. That's fine though, because we can pick them up at a much lower rate (initially) and grow them. Those people are usually much more loyal, and will have a lower turn over. As long as their salary grows consistently with their competency.

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#38

Post by Fergusman »

sevensor wrote: post #15
1_800_UNICORN wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The school, which has taught approximately 1,000 students, charges students between $12,000 and $15,000 for a 12 to 16 week in-person class and approximately $1,500 a month for online coding classes. Let's assume a very conservative estimate of 800 students doing 1 of online work, and 200 students paying $12k for a class. That works out to $1.2M in online tuition, and $2.4M in in-person tuition. Given how conservativ…

It's funny, I did the same math and concluded there's no way they profited enough from this scheme to cover the cost of noncompliance. Even if they took $3.6M in revenue, they had to pay salaries, expensive rent, and overhead for 5 years. That's barely scraping by. Hopefully they're sitting on a pile of investor money they can use to pay this settlement.

You need to flip the number, the online program is relatively new. The 1,000 taught reflects mostly in-person students.

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#39

Post by geofft »

alphonsegaston wrote: post #12

A while back, Zed Shaw was claiming to have some bootcamp takedown in the works based on dirt from students and insiders. But then nothing ever came of it. Not sure if he was afraid of getting sued or it was just posturing.

This is the same Zed Shaw who believes Python 3 isn't Turing-complete because it's not compatible with Python 2? Why should anyone take him seriously?

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#40

Post by CloudYeller »

lloyd-christmas wrote: post #25
lr4444lr wrote: post #10

I'm not the biggest job-hopper, but I've worked at 3 companies in the last 5 years in the NYC area, and have never once worked with, known anyone who's once worked with, or knew a hiring manager who would even consider someone whose only significant background in software was a coding bootcamp. For those who've experienced it, are they hired out of desperation into firms that need manpower and have enough more senior…

My brother and I both took one. He's at Goldman Sachs, and I work for a company that builds medical software. I finished my course 3.5 years ago and 75% of my class are still working as developers. Major employers include Google, Conde Nast, JPM, GS. Most people work for mid/small size companies so they could get better mentorship than the corporate life. I think one major issue people like you have is that they don'…

Yes. Many coding boot camps are full of people who are simply very employable. I think that's part of the reason why some of their hiring stats are so good-- there's huge selection and survivorship biases in their grads. I went to a bc 4 yrs ago and several of my classmates had cs degrees or actual work exp in a software dev role.

There are plenty of reasons to go to a bc besides "welp, I woke up today and felt like being an engineer"-- maybe you're working for a doomed company, or you want to change cities, you feel your growth is limited at your current gig, or you just want a break from your routine. Ymmv but it's a mistake to flat out dismiss all bc grads.

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