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Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

crowdedcities.com

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Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#121

Post by KGIII »

danielam wrote: post #108
spaceribs wrote: post #16

Back in college I did a paper on if this was ethical or not for my bioethics class, I warn people to really take a step back from the positive possibilities with something like this and understand that these are wild animals being trained to become slaves to benefit our human failings and appetites. I would definitely draw a line between this kind of domestication and the domestication of animals by our ancestors for…

I think your moral sentiments are misplaced. While it would be nice if people didn't litter, training animals to do something beneficial for us is not immoral as such, and especially not if no cruelty is involved. It certainly isn't slavery as slavery presumes rights, something animals do not have. To have an argument, you'd have to show that any negative effects of training surpass the positive. Even if it led to a…

I think we have pretty clearly established that some animals have right. We may have established that most animals have rights, I'm not sure.

Try setting fire to a horse and see the legal results. Try making a species go extinct, even pests. So, there are some rights - and arguments for even stronger rights.

Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#123

Post by Eric_WVGG »

elihu wrote: post #103

I wonder what other tasks we could train species to do in exchange for something they want? For instance, cane toads are invasive and toxic enough that predators usually leave them alone. Supposing that cane toads can be deposited in a receptacle by some bird who wouldn't otherwise eat it without being harmed by the toxin, could they be used to eradicate cane toads in places where they're not wanted in exchange for f…

A fellow trained his cat to "hunt" whiffle balls around the apartment so it would have a chance to, well, act like a cat for its food. Sort of. It's neat, anyway.

http://benjaminmillam.com/cat-geek/monkey-the-cat-hunts-for-...

Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#124

Post by [deleted] »

andymcsherry wrote: post #49
ceedan wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah... the callousness of smokers and their littering is unacceptable. I understand that throwing your cigarette in the trash can be a fire hazard sometimes, but put the cigarette out and throw it out. Some smokers just seem to love flicking that still-burning cigarette into the road like it's no big deal.

Smoker in San Francisco here. I've thought about this quite a bit and here's my dilemma. 1. It is illegal to smoke indoors 2. San Francisco has made it illegal to have ash trays outdoors 3. Cigarettes set trash on fire so it's not acceptable to put them in the bin 4. Cigarettes have a tax on every pack earmarked to fund street clean-up I'd prefer to not throw my cigarettes on the ground, but I've been left with no re…

[deleted]

Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#125

Post by kbutler »

andymcsherry wrote: post #49
ceedan wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah... the callousness of smokers and their littering is unacceptable. I understand that throwing your cigarette in the trash can be a fire hazard sometimes, but put the cigarette out and throw it out. Some smokers just seem to love flicking that still-burning cigarette into the road like it's no big deal.

Smoker in San Francisco here. I've thought about this quite a bit and here's my dilemma. 1. It is illegal to smoke indoors 2. San Francisco has made it illegal to have ash trays outdoors 3. Cigarettes set trash on fire so it's not acceptable to put them in the bin 4. Cigarettes have a tax on every pack earmarked to fund street clean-up I'd prefer to not throw my cigarettes on the ground, but I've been left with no re…

Amazon solves your dilemma for $4.99

https://www.amazon.com/SmartDealsPro-Stainless-Portable-Circ...

You buy and carry the pack of cigarettes and the lighter, so the portable ashtray isn't a big additional expense or burden.

Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#127

Post by Consultant32452 »

personjerry wrote: post #32
cujic9 wrote: post #2

Bonus points when the crows learn they can speed up the process by dive bombing a smoker, causing them to run away in terror, dropping their cigarette in the process.

Magpies already dive bomb everyone in Australia so they're 50% there

Did they learn the technique by watching the drop bears?

Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#128

Post by andymcsherry »

andymcsherry wrote: post #49
ceedan wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah... the callousness of smokers and their littering is unacceptable. I understand that throwing your cigarette in the trash can be a fire hazard sometimes, but put the cigarette out and throw it out. Some smokers just seem to love flicking that still-burning cigarette into the road like it's no big deal.

Smoker in San Francisco here. I've thought about this quite a bit and here's my dilemma. 1. It is illegal to smoke indoors 2. San Francisco has made it illegal to have ash trays outdoors 3. Cigarettes set trash on fire so it's not acceptable to put them in the bin 4. Cigarettes have a tax on every pack earmarked to fund street clean-up I'd prefer to not throw my cigarettes on the ground, but I've been left with no re…

To all those that provided more suggestions, yeah there are other ways to deal with this.

You could carry a portable ashtray, sure. But your pockets are already stuffed, you're carrying your cell phone, wallet, keys, cigarettes and a lighter already. Plus those things stink. As a smoker, you already stink, and you're washing your hands, eating mints to futher ensure you don't bother the people around you with the smell of it.

You could extinguish it fully on the sidewalk. The same sidewalk that is pissed and shit on daily in San Francisco. I'd rather not touch my hands to it.

You're constantly demonized by the people around you. Random strangers call you callous in public forums. You're subject to the passive-agressive coughs, the glares from passer-bys and the occassional snarky comment.

The life of a smoker is one of constant inconvenience. Eventually, you just decide you've had enough. It's not worth it anymore. You throw your cigarette on the sidewalk and move on with your day. You don't feel good about it, and you wish you could of done better.

Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#129

Post by adrusi »

spaceribs wrote: post #16

Back in college I did a paper on if this was ethical or not for my bioethics class, I warn people to really take a step back from the positive possibilities with something like this and understand that these are wild animals being trained to become slaves to benefit our human failings and appetites. I would definitely draw a line between this kind of domestication and the domestication of animals by our ancestors for…

You're implicitly claiming that crows have second order desires (what you "want to want", as opposed to first order desires, "what you want"). If crows don't have second order desires then this doesn't matter to them, it's just another way of getting food. They're not bothered by whatever it is that's the problem with cigarette butt food, they're incapable of being bothered by that: they want to food so they want to pick up cigarette butts, and they have no capacity to reflect on whether they want to want to pick up cigarette butts, so they're not bothered.

If crows do have second order desires, then it's possible they might be bothered, and then you have an ethics problem. And we actually have more reason to think crows might have second order desires than we do for other animals: crows recognize themselves in mirrors, which requires an awareness of self, therefore they have an awareness of self. An awareness of self is necessary for having second order desires. It's not enough to conclude that they have second order desires, but it's a shred of evidence. However, we usually consider young children to not have second order desires, so I'm fairly skeptical of the idea that crows have them.

It's not clear that there's any ethical violation even if crows do have second order desires, but if they don't, there's no ethical question at all.

Edit: no ethical violation where the crows are the victims in the sense that we're discussing.

Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#130

Post by kalleboo »

andymcsherry wrote: post #49
ceedan wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah... the callousness of smokers and their littering is unacceptable. I understand that throwing your cigarette in the trash can be a fire hazard sometimes, but put the cigarette out and throw it out. Some smokers just seem to love flicking that still-burning cigarette into the road like it's no big deal.

Smoker in San Francisco here. I've thought about this quite a bit and here's my dilemma. 1. It is illegal to smoke indoors 2. San Francisco has made it illegal to have ash trays outdoors 3. Cigarettes set trash on fire so it's not acceptable to put them in the bin 4. Cigarettes have a tax on every pack earmarked to fund street clean-up I'd prefer to not throw my cigarettes on the ground, but I've been left with no re…

Get a portable ashtray from a dollar store
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