Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food • Hacker News Board

Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#51

Post by darkstar999 » Mon, Oct 16, 2017, 11:13 PM UTC

retox wrote: post #33

As a thought experiment, imagine if this mutually beneficial behaviour went on for hundreds/thousands of years to the point that the animals lost their insincts for hunting/finding food independently. It would be a disaster if suddently humans changed the conditions of the relationship by, for example, outlawing cigarettes in favour of vaping. Does anyone know of any real-world examples of this happening? The only on…

> I found this quote unbelievable

4.5 trillion does sound like a lot.

One source said there were 5.8 trillion cigarettes smoked globally in 2014. There's no way most of those get littered.... right?

Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#52

Post by ipsum2 » Mon, Oct 16, 2017, 11:14 PM UTC

> When we started doing research we found out there is a guy in the States that is teaching crows to collect coins. His name is Joshua Klein.

It's commonly agreed that this never worked successfully in the wild.

> In that correction the NY Times states that the experiments never succeeded in teaching the crows to drop the coins into the slot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_Klein#Crows

> Klein did get a professor at Binghamton to help him try it out twice in Ithaca, with assistance from a Binghamton graduate student, and it was not a success. Corvid experts who have since been interviewed have said that Klein’s machine is unlikely to work as intended.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/12/magazine/12letters-t-CORRE...

Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#53

Post by KGIII » Mon, Oct 16, 2017, 11:14 PM UTC

dTal wrote: post #28

They're smart enough to find cigarette butts wherever they are, not just the ground. I predict you'd see a lot of crows stealing lit cigarettes and emptying ashtrays etc.

Crows are really smart. If anyone is interested, here's a PBS Nature doc about crows.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hBJKPwIFzDI

They even transfer knowledge between each other and through generations.

Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#54

Post by spaceribs » Mon, Oct 16, 2017, 11:15 PM UTC

fimbulvetr wrote: post #43

spaceribs wrote: post #16

Back in college I did a paper on if this was ethical or not for my bioethics class, I warn people to really take a step back from the positive possibilities with something like this and understand that these are wild animals being trained to become slaves to benefit our human failings and appetites. I would definitely draw a line between this kind of domestication and the domestication of animals by our ancestors for…

The idea that there is a black/white side of convenience vs. survival is not reasonable. It is very much a gradient, and I’m afraid that there’s much more nuance to it. For instance, if I have a dog trained to fetch my fowl from a lake after shooting it, is that convenience or survival? Does it not depend on the circumstance? In the deep cold of winter it may spare me from a swift death, for the very same hunter in t…

I just don't think we can in good conscience domesticate any more animals. We are a thriving empowered species on our own, we are starting to make our own creatures (both robotically and genetically) and we shouldn't have to subjugate more of nature for our overconsumption and shortsighted behaviors.

Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#55

Post by dark_silicon » Mon, Oct 16, 2017, 11:17 PM UTC

ch4s3 wrote: post #42

brulez wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not also start enforcing littering fines? A $270-$500 ticket should be help to incentivize a behavior change.

This is the essence of "Broken Windows" policing, and at least in the US has proven to be a broken policy. A large number of factors, specifically officer discretion turn these types of minor offenses into taxes levied against the poorest communities. Also, I'm not sure I want the armed enforcers of the state getting into altercations with otherwise law abiding folks over littering.

The failings of the broken windows policies hinge on their faulty premise: that the sight of minor crimes going unenforced leads to people brashly escalating to higher crimes.

I don't believe this premise, yet I wonder sometimes if keeping the peace in regards to smaller offenses would lead to fewer incidences of anger turning to road rage or violent crime. If people do not feel safe or that they have civil outlets for resolution of grievances, perhaps they're more violent? I'm curious what the more social science oriented on this site might know about this.

In any case, there's still yet another reason to enforce laws against small crimes: littering is a terrible thing in itself!

Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#56

Post by joe_the_user » Mon, Oct 16, 2017, 11:18 PM UTC

spaceribs wrote: post #16

Back in college I did a paper on if this was ethical or not for my bioethics class, I warn people to really take a step back from the positive possibilities with something like this and understand that these are wild animals being trained to become slaves to benefit our human failings and appetites. I would definitely draw a line between this kind of domestication and the domestication of animals by our ancestors for…

Would you also object to training the mice that infest our houses to also engage in activities we consider useful? Perhaps say, training them to do their business outside?

I mean, to describe the animals, like crows or racoons, which live in cities and consume human detritus, as "wild" seems like somethings of a misstatement - I'm not sure what the best term would be but "feral", "parasitic" or "coadapted" are seem equally good. Training animals in an environment that's otherwise untouched by humans seems bad for the "naturalness" of said environment but situation seems no more invasive than spaying feral cats.

Indeed, if anyone is worried about the human domination of nature, they can take comfort that schemes like this should further raise the intelligence of crows to the point they'll have a shot at overthrowing the unjust reign of we naked apes.

Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#57

Post by RandallBrown » Mon, Oct 16, 2017, 11:20 PM UTC

andymcsherry wrote: post #49

ceedan wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah... the callousness of smokers and their littering is unacceptable. I understand that throwing your cigarette in the trash can be a fire hazard sometimes, but put the cigarette out and throw it out. Some smokers just seem to love flicking that still-burning cigarette into the road like it's no big deal.

Smoker in San Francisco here. I've thought about this quite a bit and here's my dilemma. 1. It is illegal to smoke indoors 2. San Francisco has made it illegal to have ash trays outdoors 3. Cigarettes set trash on fire so it's not acceptable to put them in the bin 4. Cigarettes have a tax on every pack earmarked to fund street clean-up I'd prefer to not throw my cigarettes on the ground, but I've been left with no re…

Put them out and put them in the garbage, your pocket, or a plastic bag.

When people go out to a national park they don't just throw trash on the ground because "I paid an entry fee that should fund the clean up."

Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#58

Post by dark_silicon » Mon, Oct 16, 2017, 11:21 PM UTC

andymcsherry wrote: post #49

ceedan wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah... the callousness of smokers and their littering is unacceptable. I understand that throwing your cigarette in the trash can be a fire hazard sometimes, but put the cigarette out and throw it out. Some smokers just seem to love flicking that still-burning cigarette into the road like it's no big deal.

Smoker in San Francisco here. I've thought about this quite a bit and here's my dilemma. 1. It is illegal to smoke indoors 2. San Francisco has made it illegal to have ash trays outdoors 3. Cigarettes set trash on fire so it's not acceptable to put them in the bin 4. Cigarettes have a tax on every pack earmarked to fund street clean-up I'd prefer to not throw my cigarettes on the ground, but I've been left with no re…

Just to play devil's advocate here: you do have the alternative of not smoking.

(I dislike smoke, but if you're not blowing it around in a public place I don't particularly mind your decision to smoke)

Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#59

Post by Theodores » Mon, Oct 16, 2017, 11:23 PM UTC

spaceribs wrote: post #16

Back in college I did a paper on if this was ethical or not for my bioethics class, I warn people to really take a step back from the positive possibilities with something like this and understand that these are wild animals being trained to become slaves to benefit our human failings and appetites. I would definitely draw a line between this kind of domestication and the domestication of animals by our ancestors for…

So I am on first name terms with about 100 crows and jackdaws. What if I have the chat with them and tell them that from now on they have zero hours contracts employed picking up cigarette butts. So rather than hang around in the trees by the river waiting for some small child to turn up with bread, I will be expecting them to be diligently going along paths and through lawns picking up cigarette butts and then getting paid in posh bird friendly food for that. I can't see this going down well with the birds I know.

Do not feed wild animals is something I know and generally believe in and honour. However I feed the ducks, crows, pigeons, seagulls, geese and others that have decided against doing fabulous things such as emigrating and have decided to exist living on bread donated to them by small children. I also take others with me to feed the ducks, as if I really need the 'help'.

In fairness I do give them reasonably fresh homemade bread that is not empty calories or I give them goodies from the work fridge that need clearing out. I was horrified to see a lady giving the ducks mouldy bread recently, luckily they knew it to not be food.

I go for the airborne catches of food. So that means seagulls, jackdaws and crows. The crows know where they have to be for me to throw something to them and for them to catch. The same with the seagulls. There is some need to concentrate and pay attention, correctly sized pieces have to be thrown quite accurately and on time, with the seagulls they have to do a big 50m radius turn in the air to come in again if they didn't get lucky the first time. The mid air hover is most impressive as abilities go.

Despite knowing that feeding wild animals is always wrong and that bread poisons the water and has no nutritional value, I do take great pleasure in feeding the birds. For those few minutes I am not thinking of this problem or that problem, I am just in 'the zone' feeding those clever birds, as is whomever I have brought along to help. There is an art to it! But still, ethical? No, golden rule has been broken.

So why break the golden rule? Well, these birds have already decided not to do things like emigrate, the river doesn't have the insect and other life it would have and much else is wrong. So I look into their cute eyes and go along with 21st century realities, humans feed birds, okay?!?

What motivates others to feed the ducks interests me. The best answer yet provided is that 'birds are god's messengers' and that by feeding them that one can get 'a word in'.

Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#60

Post by dragonwriter » Mon, Oct 16, 2017, 11:25 PM UTC

darkstar999 wrote: post #51

retox wrote: post #33

As a thought experiment, imagine if this mutually beneficial behaviour went on for hundreds/thousands of years to the point that the animals lost their insincts for hunting/finding food independently. It would be a disaster if suddently humans changed the conditions of the relationship by, for example, outlawing cigarettes in favour of vaping. Does anyone know of any real-world examples of this happening? The only on…

> I found this quote unbelievable 4.5 trillion does sound like a lot. One source said there were 5.8 trillion cigarettes smoked globally in 2014. There's no way most of those get littered.... right?

> One source said there were 5.8 trillion cigarettes smoked globally in 2014. There's no way most of those get littered.... right?

Given my observation of people's smoking habits and the locations (or, mostly, not) of public facilities for the disposal of cigarettes, I'd say it's quite plausible that most got literates but only between 1/5 - 1/4 were smoked in a place where there was convenient access for disposal by someone who cared to use it.