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Why Are Millennials Wary of Freedom?

nytimes.com

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Re: Why Are Millennials Wary of Freedom?

#81

Post by asabjorn »

dragonwriter wrote: post #72
ithilglin909 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t disagree that saying we have “Free Speech” in America is a bit of an overstatement, but the article wasn’t taking about millennials simple wanting to do away with the phrase “Free Speech”. It states many would be in favor of regulating speech simply for its capacity to offend.

> It states many would be in favor of regulating speech simply for its capacity to offend No, it doesn't. It says that many are in favor of colleges regulating some on-campus speech that is deliberately offensive. Even to the extent that the colleges are public and thus even relevant to “free speech” considerations, that's a combination of context and intent to offend, not mere capacity to offend, that is at issue. (…

Who is the judge of if the intent was to offend or express a different viewpoint?

Re: Why Are Millennials Wary of Freedom?

#82

Post by dragonwriter »

hashmal wrote: post #3

Random thoughts: - Freedom and democracy are different things, if some people think democracy isn't that important, it does not mean they do not value freedom. - Maybe the millenials are "not open to diverse opinions", but maybe they're just sick of bullshit. "Free Speech" can be interpreted in different ways (and each country in the world does that).

> Freedom and democracy are different things, if some people think democracy isn't that important, it does not mean they do not value freedom.

Democracy is a form of freedom (freedom from government in which one is not a participant), and clearly a form of freedom important in the historical American concept of freedom (though, to be fair, it's not just Millenials for whom that had weakened, with the colonial America’s signature protest against norepresentative dictates being co-opted ss a symbol for political forces that are opposed to taxation rather than it’s imposition by nonrepresentative means.)

Re: Why Are Millennials Wary of Freedom?

#83

Post by dragonwriter »

asabjorn wrote: post #81
dragonwriter wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It states many would be in favor of regulating speech simply for its capacity to offend No, it doesn't. It says that many are in favor of colleges regulating some on-campus speech that is deliberately offensive. Even to the extent that the colleges are public and thus even relevant to “free speech” considerations, that's a combination of context and intent to offend, not mere capacity to offend, that is at issue. (…

Who is the judge of if the intent was to offend or express a different viewpoint?

Presumably, the same as would be the case for any other intent-based regulation by the same regulator.

Prohibitions where intent is an essential component, and judging intent is essential to applying the prohibition are not new in campus regulation, or in civil and criminal law, for that matter.

But, in any case, that's in implementation issue that is not germane to what support has actually been voiced for.

Re: Why Are Millennials Wary of Freedom?

#84

Post by noobermin »

willismichael wrote: post #66
noobermin wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are extremely ignorant of the cost of living in the US if you think 30K is enough to live on.

The US is a big place, not everybody feels like they have to live in the Bay Area or some other place with a similarly ludicrous cost of living.

I lived in the midwestern city as a single graduate student with $25K in a ratty (literally) apartment. I survived, I didn't feel "free" enough in the way he suggests. The only way I had savings and spending money was the hope I'd get a degree someday and the fact I don't drink alcohol or smoke, and I didn't need to drive.

I earn more now, and am considerably more free. I don't wish how I lived on anyone, and I am under no delusion that most well adjusted adults in the richest country in the world would be willing to live how I did. I realize you aren't making this argument, I'm more replying to who I replied to initially.

Might I add I had good healthcare due to my university...and my department waived my tuition (and hence paid for my healthcare). Could you imagine life without that? Or if I couldn't defer my loans?

Re: Why Are Millennials Wary of Freedom?

#85

Post by RamenJunkie_ »

noobermin wrote: post #15
aaron-lebo wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much disposable income do you need to be free? Cheap car, cheap rent, every form of media ever for about $50 a month. You can do that easily on 30k. If you can't make 30k a year, you've got a limited skillset, it's not anyone else's fault. What's amazing for US millenials in particular is just how much we've got and how little we appreciate it.

You are extremely ignorant of the cost of living in the US if you think 30K is enough to live on.

I spent the first 5 years of my career making 20-25k / year, family of 5. This wasn't some crappy McJob either.

It was pretty tight at times but we made it work.

I switched to a different company and make around 4-3x that now and live pretty comfortably.

Welcome to a world that isn't California (and to an extend New York)

Re: Why Are Millennials Wary of Freedom?

#86

Post by nickthemagicman »

aaron-lebo wrote: post #10
mbillie1 wrote: post #7

In the US at any rate you need a fairly significant amount of disposable income to meaningfully be free. Of course you are "free" to (attempt to) acquire this income, and most people reading HN will have already done so. But for a large swath of young people working low wage jobs, living at home because they can't afford rent, the notion of "freedom" might not seem that significant.

How much disposable income do you need to be free? Cheap car, cheap rent, every form of media ever for about $50 a month. You can do that easily on 30k. If you can't make 30k a year, you've got a limited skillset, it's not anyone else's fault. What's amazing for US millenials in particular is just how much we've got and how little we appreciate it.

A car is unaffordable on 30k a year, after taxes, insurance, and rent.

Think about it.

Taxes/Medicare/SSI chops of 30%, you're left with 21k.

Rent is 500 a month in a cheap city with a roomate, youre left with 15k.

Utilities are 100 a month with a roomate, that leaves you with 13000ish.

Food and ALL OTHER living expenses including clothes, transportation/gas, etc are (living frugally) 250 a week.

That leaves you with 1k a year...

Re: Why Are Millennials Wary of Freedom?

#87

Post by nickthemagicman »

aaron-lebo wrote: post #19
noobermin wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are extremely ignorant of the cost of living in the US if you think 30K is enough to live on.

I've lived on that, so try again. Why do you believe that's crazy? $500 apt $150 car insurance $100 utilities $ 50 media (Netflix, Spotify, etc) You're taking home about $1800 a month, so that still leaves another $1000 to fill out the rest (food, gasoline, etc). That's plenty of money. You aren't going to be making regular trips to Hawaii, but that's more than enough to do whatever you'd like.

You didn't count taxes, car payment, utilities, health insurance, and other bills like phone...in there.

You deff had help from your parents to so blithely discount those expenses.

Re: Why Are Millennials Wary of Freedom?

#88

Post by RamenJunkie_ »

tempYeez wrote: post #35
randomdata wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are costs so high in the US? As a Canadian, where things are said to be more expensive than in the US, $30K CAD (~$24K USD) is more than enough for a person without dependents to live quite comfortably. The median income in the US is not far off $30K[1], so what do half the population do? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_...

Well you math is not very accurate when it comes to fees. So even without college. A car would cost 8k, rent would be around 6k, health care would be 2.4k, food at 250 a month is 2.7k. That alone is 20k. This doesn't include entertainment expenses let alone emergency like actually getting sick.

8k/ year for a car? You could pay one off in like 2/3rds of that if you buy something used.

Re: Why Are Millennials Wary of Freedom?

#89

Post by mabub24 »

Veratyr wrote: post #79
mabub24 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you have two societies with the same set of laws, one generated by dictatorial benevolent AI overlords and one generated by democracy. Are the people in the AI-governed society less free, even when subject to the same rules and restrictions? Yes. Because that's baked into your premise: > the same set of laws, one generated by dictatorial benevolent AI overlords and one generated by democracy. These are not the same…

> These are not the same sets of laws. > Those under the AI have no say in those laws or recourse to alter them. Sorry, I did miss that part. I'll revise to say "the same laws, save for the means of changing them". The only freedom that's really lost in my AI-dictated society is the freedom to determine the rules and on an individual level, I don't think that's meaningful. At an individual level, I already cannot rea…

> "the same laws, save for the means of changing them".

> The only freedom that's really lost in my AI-dictated society is the freedom to determine the rules and on an individual level, I don't think that's meaningful. At an individual level, I already cannot realistically change the rules, so losing that technicality makes me no less free.

But the loss of the individual freedom to determine the rules is also the loss of freedom for a society to determine the rules for itself. That is profoundly meaningful. Every dystopian narrative in modern history has been about that point. "Perfect" societies are as artificial as "rightful" dictators. Freedom without democracy is, from the view of a democracy, not freedom at all.

> You keep bringing democracy in where I don't believe it belongs. I'm talking about freedom, not democracy.

I disagree, I'm saying they are the same thing. A democracy expresses our freedom and our freedom is expressed through our democracy. They cannot be separated. I think that is our main disagreement.

> A person living under the right dictator would have more freedom than one living under the wrong (but still valid) democracy, being freed from the burden of governance.

Governance is not a burden. This is why I say devaluing freedom is devaluing democracy. And why the "right" dictator is still a dictator, and therefore they cannot but perpetuate a less free system. Our democracies are a system that allows us to trust a representative from society to project our mandate, to express our will, amongst others with mutual trust placed in them. If they do not, then we can vote them out. It is not a burden to vote or to take part in politics. On the contrary, it is a singular symbol of our freedoms. That does not mean democracies are perfect. Lord knows they are not. But, democracies are the best we have. It's not an add-on, we either have it or we are less free.

Re: Why Are Millennials Wary of Freedom?

#90

Post by dragonwriter »

imustbeevil wrote: post #8
ithilglin909 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being sick of bullshit is fine. Having the government regulate bull-shitting is a huge step towards tyranny.

What is one example of the government regulating free speech through law in the last 10 years?

Laws in various US jurisdictions targeting the BDS movement.
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