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I Fell 15,000 Feet and Lived

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Re: I Fell 15,000 Feet and Lived

#211

Post by Johnny_Brahms »

sliverstorm wrote: post #176
Johnny_Brahms wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This depends on the type of avalanche. I know,because I was caught in one. The one I was in was relatively minor and made up of a large part newly fallen snow. I had stopped for a break and managed to get my skis back on, but the thing overtook me hundred meters later. I had managed to get to higher ground relative to the rest of the slope, which is probably what saved me. I broke one leg and both my arms and got a p…

What mountain range? I understand the Rockies have a lot of nasty deep slab avalanches (not soft and fluffy) and the Sierras have really heavy wet snow (also not soft and fluffy). Alaska was mentioned in avy classes as the chief place for fluffy sloughing?

This was in a small valley near insbruck, Austria in the early nineties. It got some media attention due to some controversy regarding irresponsible tourists. I had however done my research and picked a slope that was regarded as low risk, which was unsurprisingly not reported b the local media :)

Re: I Fell 15,000 Feet and Lived

#212

Post by tempestn »

dmitrygr wrote: post #79

One important note is that this was NOT free fall as you'd expect. The pilot chute is still pretty large and provides a LOT of drag. Instead of 120mph, you'd be falling near ~90mph with just it behind you. That is 44% less kinetic energy!

Yes, I was thinking the same. The un-deployed main chute was probably providing some drag as well. (But the pilot chute would be the main thing.)

Re: I Fell 15,000 Feet and Lived

#213

Post by Bluestrike2 »

iopuy wrote: post #27

Earlier this year on a white water rafting expedition I had the misfortune of falling out of the raft and into a series of category 5 rapids. It was absolute chaos. The force of large bodies of moving water is astounding. Any notion of "swimming to safety" is ludicrous. A more accurate description is "being washed to safety" because you have no control over the larger movements of your body. I've heard in avalanches…

I can speak more towards avalanches than I can with rapids. It might be tangential to this discussion, but I can't help but chime in on the subject when I get the chance. I've thankfully never been buried in a slide, but it's one of those topics that all non-suicidal backcountry skiers spend a lot of time studying. The community is extremely focused on education and outreach, because those are the only tools that will give people the knowledge and skills needed for informed decision-making when they're in the backcountry. You do everything in your power to avoid being in a position to trigger a slide in the first place. Even if it means foregoing your planned lines for more conservative terrain, going home when you see the terrain and snowpack, or not going out at all if the forecasted danger level is high.

Self-rescue is really, really rare unless you've been incredibly lucky enough to float towards the top of a shallow deposition zone in a small slide. Or you've been deposited on top. Even in a relatively shallow burial, 10-12" inches (or even less) means you're entombed in what might as well be concrete. If you're lucky, you'll be able to at least push away a cavity to breathe into while you wait for the rest of your group to dig you out before you asphyxiate. There's equipment that can help you improve your chances (airbag, AvaLung) beyond just the beacon, but they're not guarantees. If it's in your mouth and it isn't knocked out, an AvaLung might help you extend your air supply. An ABS airbag system will hopefully help you float closer to the top during the slide. It won't help you if you slam into a tree or other debris and break your back.

Whether it's in the snow, or in the water, mother nature is an uncaring mistress who demands respect. Even when you do everything right, she can still kill you. If there's one good thing about hearing these stories, terrifying and tragic as they often may be, it's that they can drive home that point. The outdoors are, more often than not, a continual exercise in risk management. We put up with it because there's nothing quite as breathtaking as seeing the sun peak over a snow-covered horizon from atop the mountain. Or as exhilarating as the ride down.

Re: I Fell 15,000 Feet and Lived

#214

Post by nawgszy »

rconti wrote: post #198
dmitrygr wrote: post #79

One important note is that this was NOT free fall as you'd expect. The pilot chute is still pretty large and provides a LOT of drag. Instead of 120mph, you'd be falling near ~90mph with just it behind you. That is 44% less kinetic energy!

He mentioned not preparing for the impact. How would one even prepare for an impact if one wanted to? Ground or water, I just can't think of a good way to land. Anyone have any insight?

I think about this sometimes. Ground, I have no answer, you seem like you will die. Perhaps landing legs first allows you to use those as a crumple zone.

Water, though, isn't the pencil dive the clear winner? Everything else would decelerate you so much faster that it would be bound to cause injuries. The only downside (relative to all other methods of impact) I can imagine is how far underwater you might end up.

I would be happy for someone to tell me otherwise, but this is my completely theoretical summation of a terminal velocity water-landing.

Re: I Fell 15,000 Feet and Lived

#215

Post by simonswords82 »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #178
Mitchhhs wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Peter O Knight Airport, Tampa, FL. Heres some coverage of the incident: http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/accidents/two-hurt...

Christ, what a mess of an accident. You'd think there would be a practical solution to this that didn't involve operators having to worry about each other behaving correctly. Like moving the airport or shipping lane somewhere else so they don't interfere. Or the tower handling this via automation like a laser bouncing across the waterline and triggering an alert if a boat is too close to the shore. Have you developed…

It's amazing how little governance there is in the sky for general avaiation - aka small planes flown by private pilot license holders. When I studied to get my PPL it was the one thing I learned that shocked me.

There are NOTAMs (Notice to Airmen) that tell us about new structures that have been erected that could be problematic. NOTAMs also tell us if parts of the sky are off limits, for example if an airshow is on.

Other than that, and I am generalising a lot, there is no air collision avoidance in the majority of private planes here in the UK. Your two best mechanisms of defence are your eyes, and keeping one ear on the radio to get a feel for where everybody else is. If they're not too busy air traffic control will warn you about other planes in your vicinity, but it is not mandatory. There are also TCAS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_collision_avoidance_sy...) systems you can bolt on to your plane, or might come with new planes, but they're not mandatory and I've yet to fly a plane that comes with one.

As for finding fault. That doesn't happen in air accident investigations. Air Accident Investigation Reports (https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports) are specifically engineered to focus on the problem, and find a solution to prevent a repeat of it. They are not designed to apportion blame, but instead learn from the mistake and build mechanisms for ensuring that the same outcome is mitigated. That's not to say you won't be prosecuted but that's a separate process.

Re: I Fell 15,000 Feet and Lived

#216

Post by Cryptid »

Mitchhhs wrote: post #144

I was once in a plane crash in which the wing of our small plane hit the mast of a sailboat that was motoring in front of the runway and we didnt see it. We impacted the seawall and flipped over onto land and slid upside down a few hundred feet. The author's description of both not feeling his injuries until he tried to move as well as his own recognition of not being dead were spot on. I would have described it exac…

As soon as you said this I thought of Peter O. Knight and the Davis Island Yacht Club. I used to watch the planes land as we derigged our dinghies.

Re: I Fell 15,000 Feet and Lived

#217

Post by mannykannot »

Mitchhhs wrote: post #180
drzaiusapelord wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Christ, what a mess of an accident. You'd think there would be a practical solution to this that didn't involve operators having to worry about each other behaving correctly. Like moving the airport or shipping lane somewhere else so they don't interfere. Or the tower handling this via automation like a laser bouncing across the waterline and triggering an alert if a boat is too close to the shore. Have you developed…

I have many thoughts on all of this. 1. Regarding solutions: This airport does not have a tower, so its up to the pilots to use the radio to announce intentions etc. To me, the core problem is that this does not loop in the boats and so there is no way to communicate. I think having the boats or some third party announce when a crossing is occurring would help. I also think, in response to this accident they moved th…

In what way do you (or drzaiusapelord, if you see this) think that the boat operator was in any way at fault? There doesn't seem to be any indication of that in the NTSB report[1], and the newspaper report states that the boat was in the channel.

[1] https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?E...

Re: I Fell 15,000 Feet and Lived

#218

Post by cat199 »

clamprecht wrote: post #167
fgonzag wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fun fact, there is no difference between 2000 feet (about 600 meters) and 15,000 feet, because of terminal velocity. It also means that in a free fall spreading your body out horizontally to increase the drag forces, then re positioning just before landing would be the optimal choice. Not that you think of that in a free fall, but the physics are there.

I wonder if there's some way you can actually do the opposite: First, gain all the speed you can (speed is energy). Then before you hit the ground, do a kind of "flare", where you make your body into a wing, and decrease your downward energy. Do this right to the point of stall (as close as you can get) to reduce kinetic energy when you hit. I know it'd be basically impossible for a human to actually do this perfectl…

not an aviation/physics buff, but I think having a point of 'stall' implies there is some 'lift' to begin with..

Re: I Fell 15,000 Feet and Lived

#219

Post by Mitchhhs »

mannykannot wrote: post #217
Mitchhhs wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have many thoughts on all of this. 1. Regarding solutions: This airport does not have a tower, so its up to the pilots to use the radio to announce intentions etc. To me, the core problem is that this does not loop in the boats and so there is no way to communicate. I think having the boats or some third party announce when a crossing is occurring would help. I also think, in response to this accident they moved th…

In what way do you (or drzaiusapelord, if you see this) think that the boat operator was in any way at fault? There doesn't seem to be any indication of that in the NTSB report[1], and the newspaper report states that the boat was in the channel. [1] https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?E...

I don't really place blame with any one thing, but a mix of a bunch of factors. For the boat, they were motoring much closer to the side with the runway, instead of the side further away. Its not technically wrong, but if they were exercising any caution at all would have been farther away and likely out of our glideslope. On our side, we should have checked more deliberately that nothing was in our path. On base, I saw nothing, but the time we were on final I guess the boat had moved and was then in the way of the runway and neither I nor the pilot in command saw it.

Mostly though, I think there just should have been much more regulation given the number of parties operating in the same space.

Re: I Fell 15,000 Feet and Lived

#220

Post by JadeNB »

c22 wrote: post #184
JadeNB wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How he managed to survive is astonishing. Finding his knife, assessing the situation, and acting before being pulled under while injured almost defies my imagination. Riveting read. Did this happen to you or someone else? You switch from first to third person without explanation. "Riveting read" seems like a weird conclusion.

It happened to Cliff Judkins. GP is comparing an event from their own life with the content of the article.

Thank you for correcting my reading-comprehension failure. (That sounds sarcastic, but it isn't.)
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