Live data from Hacker News

You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy

medium.com

81–90 of 175 posts

Re: You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy

#81
post #14

While I can agree there are 'real' rockstar developers that act like the original article mentions, I don't think whether Rick was or wasn't one of them is what matters here. What matters most here is how management dealt with him and their lack of responsibility for Rick's work for the last two years(!) and the end as their result. Other industries seem to get this better than ours. I've worked in quite a few places…

I'm not sure other industries do handle it better. I would argue that it's a prevalent problem. There has to be a reason, why there are a bunch of studies on success and failure ratios of projects. A lot of them explicitly stating that the top issues are bad communications, lack of priorities etc. One of the standard PM exams even has frequent exam question about how sources of conflicts in projects in the following…

Personality is not a thing as such. What matter is the environment.

People adapt to their environment. Most character issues are a response to the work environment.

Re: You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people (at least in my experience, you know, the one who's making the subjective judgement about him being a dick) can be angry without saying something pretentiously mean like that. Doesn't matter. Someone backed into a corner is just act like someone backed into a corner. The die was already cast. Everything that happens after is blame-shifting.

Uh, what? It absolutely does matter. There are appropriate reactions when you’re “backed into a corner”, and there are inappropriate reactions. I absolutely get to say what the arbitrary line is in this case because I’m the one making the subjective judgment that Rick was most likely being an asshole. If Rick had snapped and shot up the place would you think he should face no consequences?

If Rick had snapped and shot up the place would you think he should face no consequences?

I'm sorry I insufficiently hedged my tolerance of someone showing anger when pressed and didn't think to explicitly cover the case of escalation to violence.

I absolutely get to say what the arbitrary line is in this case because I’m the one making the subjective judgment

And I absolutely get to tell you that in my assessment you're wrong. That how opinions work.

Re: You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Don't get me started on the arbitrarily shifting release dates that correlate with buggy releases that we developers get angry emails about. I'm willing to bet that it likely causation in a majority of cases. I've been there. Business comes back with a list of wishes for the quarter. We're asked about the features as a whole, and I'm already on the fence about whether it can actually get done. We start getting gran…

Quick question, what does your contract say about work hours? There is usually a well defined limit and the unpaid overtime you do should be regarded as illegal. Don't put all the blames on management when developers do long hours. It's the developers who decide to stay late all the time when they should not.

A lot of us are contractors for the company with 40 hour work weeks. People at my company are salaried. I don't know about the other companies. I don't stray much from my 40 hours. If others want to put in that time, so be it. I always tell them to knock it off, but some people just can't be helped.

I don't put it all on management. It's a little of column A and a little of column B. It's tough standing up to management when they control your well-being.

Re: You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy

#84
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Unfortunately Rick rejected months of overtures by leadership. He refused to take time off or allow any work to be delegated. He also repeatedly rejected attempts to introduce free open source frameworks to replace hard-to-maintain bespoke tools. Including the security framework as you mentioned." How late in the game was this though? It should have been really clear cut: Rick: I'm going to take on this extra work…

> A good manager would have nipped this in the bud before it started. The problem here is that "good managers" are incredibly thin on the ground and even then, this situation can arise due to circumstances beyond their control (consider a politically well-connected developer, for example.)

> "good managers" are incredibly thin on the ground

True, but that should be a problem to solve, not an excuse (for the industry at large). Are companies providing leadership training? Are they trying to find out if a managerial candidate is actually "good" (by whatever definition they choose)? Are they evaluating the existing managers and trying to prevent problems before they start? Are they treating their managers as resources to be invested in or scapegoats?

There is a bit of chicken/egg there (they need to be good managers of their managers), but overall you can't expect to get what you aren't trying to get. If the incentives are to work on big projects to pad your resume and point fingers when they fail, you have an incentive to CREATE big projects, and an incentive to treat coders et al as someone to start building a blame narrative for in case it is useful.

I've had great managers and terrible ones. The great ones maintained a long view (don't overcommit, understand tech debt, know people are human) and would fight for you, whether that meant talking with upper management or having a hard talk with you. The terrible ones assumed their job was to assign work and chide are threaten as needed. The great ones would ask for details to understand, and only occasionally raise concerns. When they did, they brought their concerns to me first, to ask what I thought should be done. The terrible managers would also ask for details, but it was to micromanage. The great managers appreciated all their staff, even the troublesome ones, and viewed their job as finding the best point of mutual happiness between that employee and the company. The terrible ones mentally (or more) divided people up into "poor", "acceptable", and "great", and then showed favoritism to the greats and disdained the floors.

One constant for both, however, was that the managers that thrived at any given company were decided by the incentives the company provided, be they financial, cultural, or social.

Re: You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy

#85
post #7

There were a lot of failures in the Rick story "on all sides" as POTUS would say. This author seems to identify with Rick and frames this type of developer as gifted, but taken advantage of. At the end of the day, we all have to manage our own careers. And in this field that especially includes "managing your manager". Whatever process you find yourself in, you have to be able to push back and say: "I'm working on X,…

And in this field that especially includes "managing your manager".

Managers get paid to have people skills. Programmers get paid to code. If you really are some genius, you may be able to write good code and also be more talented than your manager at people stuff such that you can manage your own boss with some seriously tricksy Machiavellian maneuvering. But, saying that is necessary is suggesting that all managers are incompetent dolts who cannot possibly do their job and, also, should not be expected to.

How would you feel about someone saying "Managers should be better at running the company than the CEO and it is their responsibility to somehow steer the ship to success in spite of an incompetent, alcoholic CEO routinely making stupid decisions"?

Re: You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy

#86
post #71

I see so many sides to this -I’ve been a Rick, stayed at a company for nine years, knew where the bodies were buried because I buried most of them myself and became more disenchanted year after year which caused my attitude to get worse and worse. They wouldn’t fire me but they also wouldn’t promote me and give me raises - causing a horrible cycle. I woke up one day 8 years later in 2008 and making only 10,000 more t…

When I read the original article I was immediately curious how Rick would've written about this, and whether he was really as bad as he sounded, because I also have been, at least, a semi-Rick. Or at least I can imagine someone writing about me in a way similar to this. There's a lot I could say about my experience, but it boils down to a combination of bad practices/behavior on both sides (that I learned from immens…

I’m in the opposite position now. When I see a developer complaining about working hard having to learn all of the new stuff I’m pushing on the department - unit testing, dependency injection, CI/CD, etc. since I’m not technically management, I’m not in a position to do anything but allow for comp days and put in a good word for the FTEs and sign the time sheets of the contractors. But anything they learn will help them in the future either at the current company or the next.

I want everyone to come from the job with a mixture of doing grunt work - Yet Another Enterprise CRUD app — and learning something new cool and useful. I don’t want anyone stuck on the same app forever.

Re: You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy

#87
post #14

While I can agree there are 'real' rockstar developers that act like the original article mentions, I don't think whether Rick was or wasn't one of them is what matters here. What matters most here is how management dealt with him and their lack of responsibility for Rick's work for the last two years(!) and the end as their result. Other industries seem to get this better than ours. I've worked in quite a few places…

I'm not sure other industries do handle it better. I would argue that it's a prevalent problem. There has to be a reason, why there are a bunch of studies on success and failure ratios of projects. A lot of them explicitly stating that the top issues are bad communications, lack of priorities etc. One of the standard PM exams even has frequent exam question about how sources of conflicts in projects in the following…

> I'm not sure other industries do handle it better.

They don't. The factory I used to work at routinely fires competent, productive engineers because they need scapegoats for management failures. The bigger the failure, the bigger the scapegoat, so sometimes it goes all the way up to director level, but that's only once every few years. Realizing that all it would take to lose my livelihood would be for me to be in the wrong place at the wrong time was one of the big reasons I left.

Re: You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, what? It absolutely does matter. There are appropriate reactions when you’re “backed into a corner”, and there are inappropriate reactions. I absolutely get to say what the arbitrary line is in this case because I’m the one making the subjective judgment that Rick was most likely being an asshole. If Rick had snapped and shot up the place would you think he should face no consequences?

If Rick had snapped and shot up the place would you think he should face no consequences? I'm sorry I insufficiently hedged my tolerance of someone showing anger when pressed and didn't think to explicitly cover the case of escalation to violence. I absolutely get to say what the arbitrary line is in this case because I’m the one making the subjective judgment And I absolutely get to tell you that in my assessment yo…

> I’m sorry

Good, I’m glad we agree that you insufficiently argued that people backed into a corner aren’t responsible for their actions.

Re: You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy

#90
post #65
post #45

Could you please not spam "funny pictures" in a post like this. It makes it annoying to read.

He was mocking the original: “Look at my story! I’m going to use pop culture character names and memes and shit to identify with my audience! Whee!”

Once would have been enough. Twice to make a point. But then the point's made.
Post reply on HN