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As the 747 Begins Its Final Approach, a Pilot Takes a Flight Down Memory Lane

nytimes.com

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Re: As the 747 Begins Its Final Approach, a Pilot Takes a Flight Down Memory Lane

#51

Post by inferiorhuman »

avar wrote: post #39
pirocks wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is this necessary. I take it 747s have been safe up til now?

The reason the FAA considered fuel tank inerting in the first place is because of a 1996 crash of a 747 that killed 230 people[1], and which is thought to have been avoided had the tanks been inert[2]. Other 747s were lost to the same issue, such as the ULF48 that crashed in 1976 killing all aboard[3]. To answer your question, no, the 747 is not "safe". No aircraft ever made is "safe". They will all crash and kill pe…

I hadn't read the Wiki article about inerting systems up until now. It's interesting to me that the prediction is interting systems will prevent 8 of 9 expected wrecks in the next 50 years.

I'd argue that modern aircraft are safe especially after you factor in how many hours these things fly compared to the number of deaths. Of course, air travel has become significantly safer over time. Check out the early history of 727 hull losses. While the 747 had a number of poor designs (especially early on), the deadliest 747 wrecks were due to pilot error (e.g. Tenerife).

Re: As the 747 Begins Its Final Approach, a Pilot Takes a Flight Down Memory Lane

#52

Post by sjtgraham »

hkmurakami wrote: post #42
et-al wrote: post #20

I once got to go up to the cockpit as a child, and remember climbing up that spiral staircase, awing at business (or first?) class, and entering the mindboggling cockpit of switches. Something about that second floor, with a spiral staircase, is magical. Recently, I found out that 777's manage to fit a crew rest area on top of the overhead luggage compartments. I haven't been fortunate enough to check out one of thos…

Just as an info drop, the 2nd floor is business class. First class is on the first floor, in front of the cockpit geometrically.

There are no hard and fast rules for the configuration. I've travelled on aircraft where the top deck was business class and others where it was premium economy.

Re: As the 747 Begins Its Final Approach, a Pilot Takes a Flight Down Memory Lane

#53

Post by ericd »

FabHK wrote: post #50
DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The A380 isn't that popular either. The A380 only makes sense for really popular routes with a guaranteed high passenger count, whereas the 787 is more flexible because it has a similar range and takes less passengers but is almost as efficient per passenger-mile. And in 2016 there were fears Airbus might even cancel the A380 entirely: https://qz.com/782361/airbus-a380-airlines-are-abandoning-th...

The A380 was a bet on hub-and-spoke (Emirates is the biggest A380 operator, with all flights going to/from Dubai), while the B787 was a bet on point-to-point.

I know which model I'd rather go with as a passenger...

Re: As the 747 Begins Its Final Approach, a Pilot Takes a Flight Down Memory Lane

#54

Post by filereaper »

FabHK wrote: post #50
DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The A380 isn't that popular either. The A380 only makes sense for really popular routes with a guaranteed high passenger count, whereas the 787 is more flexible because it has a similar range and takes less passengers but is almost as efficient per passenger-mile. And in 2016 there were fears Airbus might even cancel the A380 entirely: https://qz.com/782361/airbus-a380-airlines-are-abandoning-th...

The A380 was a bet on hub-and-spoke (Emirates is the biggest A380 operator, with all flights going to/from Dubai), while the B787 was a bet on point-to-point.

Yup, Wendover Productions (massive aeroplane nerd) did a fanatastic video about this, really recommend it if anyone's interested in the economics of airlines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSxSgbNQi-g

Re: As the 747 Begins Its Final Approach, a Pilot Takes a Flight Down Memory Lane

#56

Post by astrodust »

FabHK wrote: post #49
Retric wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having more mass tends to smooth out the ride quite a bit. Being longer has both upsides and downsides as you can get a lot of torque, but you also resist that torque better.

The most relevant characteristic is the wing loading, I think, i.e. aircraft mass divided by wing area. For a given gust, acceleration is inversely proportional to wing loading. A380 > B747 > B777 (Though a B737 has the same wing loading as an A380!) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_loading

Makes you wonder how much you'd get rattled around in an aircraft that's all wing. How smooth is a B2?

Re: As the 747 Begins Its Final Approach, a Pilot Takes a Flight Down Memory Lane

#57

Post by jameslevy »

danaliv wrote: post #48
Retric wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having more mass tends to smooth out the ride quite a bit. Being longer has both upsides and downsides as you can get a lot of torque, but you also resist that torque better.

It's not the mass, it's the wing loading—the amount of mass being supported by a given area of wing. Airplanes with lower wing loadings get battered around more than those with high wing loadings.

My rule of thumb has always been that bigger planes tend to experience less turbulence, although I didn't specifically know of the exact concept of wing loading.

Are there a lot of cases where bigger planes experience less turbulence compared to smaller planes?

Re: As the 747 Begins Its Final Approach, a Pilot Takes a Flight Down Memory Lane

#58

Post by OliverJones »

My dad worked for the US diplomatic service when I was a kid. Our family started out traveling on ocean liners (on the North Atlantic route from Le Havre to New York in the winter: no glamour there). There was our journey from Lagos to NY in 1958: A DeHavilland Comet over the Sahara with four stops for fuel, and a diversion from Paris to Brussels for weather. Then a train to Le Havre on the English Channel, then five days of rough Atlantic weather with a steel plate bolted over the porthole in our cabin.

Then the 707 came along. That was then end of the stops for fuel and the multiday ship rides. Every trip took a day or too because of the 707.

Then came the 747. And that kind of travel got comfortable. Junior diplomats don't get to take their families in first class, but I did once see the piano in the upstairs lounge. Imagine: lifing a piano from sea level to flight level 370 and not caring about the weight! What an airplane!

A have a friend who was a flight attendant working the Teheran evacuation in 1979. They packed the 747 full. People were sitting on the floor in all the aisles. The holds were crammed full of peoples' stuff. And my friend said the plane just rolled and lifted off from Mehrabad Airport like it was full of marshmallows. (Of course, they were only going to Athens from Teheran, and they didn't refuel in Teheran ... the landing on arrival at Mehrabad might have been a bit heavy, eh?)

The 747 is a airplane for the ages, and definitely one of the good things of my life. I hope some people who made it possible are reading this. Thanks, you all.

Re: As the 747 Begins Its Final Approach, a Pilot Takes a Flight Down Memory Lane

#59

Post by hengheng »

omnibrain wrote: post #41

If you happen to be near Speyer in Germany you can visit the Technikmusem Speyer and see a 747 up close. https://speyer.technik-museum.de/en/boeing-747 If that's not reason enough to visit this museum: They've also got a Buran.

The twin museum at Sinsheim as a Concorde and a Tu-144 next to each other. Makes for a fun day with a rental car from Frankfurt if you are an aviation nerd.

Re: As the 747 Begins Its Final Approach, a Pilot Takes a Flight Down Memory Lane

#60

Post by seanmcdirmid »

gsnedders wrote: post #32
DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The A380 isn't that popular either. The A380 only makes sense for really popular routes with a guaranteed high passenger count, whereas the 787 is more flexible because it has a similar range and takes less passengers but is almost as efficient per passenger-mile. And in 2016 there were fears Airbus might even cancel the A380 entirely: https://qz.com/782361/airbus-a380-airlines-are-abandoning-th...

> The A380 isn't that popular either. The A380 only makes sense for really popular routes with a guaranteed high passenger count, whereas the 787 is more flexible because it has a similar range and takes less passengers but is almost as efficient per passenger-mile. Also with airports where you're slot limited, and hence operating a single aircraft is easier.

This is why they fly the 380 for some domestic flights (e.g. Beijing to Guangzhou). The only one I've been on actually.
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