Tesla fires hundreds from headquarters, factory • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla fires hundreds from headquarters, factory

#181

Post by throwingerman » Sat, Oct 14, 2017, 2:02 PM UTC

dmode wrote: post #49

I know someone who just got fired in this round at Tesla. His manager never communicated to him that he was a bad performer. He was not on a PIP or any performance plans. He was also working on Model 3. One fine morning his manager called him and said this would be his last day. He is a single income earner and was so shocked by this news that he is getting borderline depressed. They offered only 2 weeks of severance…

I don't know if this helps your friend but I know BMW in Munich is hiring. A lot of departments are fine with English speakers. I found a couple of examples for him if they are useful:

https://recruiting.bmwgroup.de/ibs/Servlets/ibs/controller/s...

I'm sure Mercedes and Audi would also have similar openings.

Re: Tesla fires hundreds from headquarters, factory

#182

Post by Frqy3 » Sat, Oct 14, 2017, 2:04 PM UTC

dunkelheit wrote: post #70

tbabb wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do they set a "quota" for 2%? Or is it that they do it every year, and 2% is about the number that falls out? I do agree that a "firing quota" is backwards; it should be a standard of performance. But even in a healthy, high-performing company, 1 (or maybe 2) out of 100 people being a drag/net-negative contributor doesn't sound far too off. Ultimately I think it helps the other 98 people to ask those two to leave as…

The problem is that a true company-wide firing of bottom 2% of performers is impossible - you would have to somehow compare and rank people with vastly different roles to pull it off. So the way to do it is to first choose unlucky departments and set a quota for each department, then choose unlucky managers and let those managers choose unlucky employees. Which makes it a lot more similar to a layoff than the company…

With unlucky departments almost always being cost centres rather than revenue centres.

Re: Tesla fires hundreds from headquarters, factory

#183

Post by throwawayknecht » Sat, Oct 14, 2017, 2:05 PM UTC

sjwright wrote: post #118

throwawayknecht wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would it be different if a hospital murdered X% of their worst-prognosis patients every January 1st, rather than letting X% die over the course of the year regardless of interventions?

An invalid (and thoroughly disgusting) analogy. You are conflating murder and death in a rather untidy way, and hoping that the disgust for the analogy taints that which we're making an analogy about. If you like the theme of murder: How would it be different if a prison, rather than executing death row inmates on the first day they were legally permitted, instead delayed their executions so they could bundle them up…

That's not the same at all, though. The prison is doing the same thing they would be doing, only on a different schedule.

Tesla has demanded that firings be carried out at the same rate as average attrition for poor performance, even though those two things have different causes and remedies. People who perform the least-well on their team but are still a (potentially large!) net benefit are generally not fired, but systems like this demand they be.

What's thoroughly disgusting is an employer summarily firing the bottom X% of their workforce, largely because the top management fucked up scheduling and needs to restore investor confidence.

Re: Tesla fires hundreds from headquarters, factory

#184

Post by throwawayknecht » Sat, Oct 14, 2017, 2:08 PM UTC

hyperpape wrote: post #159

Someone wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea in large parts of western europe is that it is OK to fire employees who aren’t fit for their job, but that “low performing”, at best, only is a low quality indicator of the former. For example, management can stifle productivity in ways that individual workers have little influence on. Also, employees may be ‘useless’ for a while, but then improve again, for example if they are going through a divorce, the d…

How do people there understand the difference between low performers and people who aren't fit for their job? The latter has the sound of something lasting that cannot be fixed, but I'm wondering how it plays out in practice. How do you determine that someone is not fit for their job as opposed to a mere low performer?

By discussing things with them like a regular human being and giving them opportunities to try things they are more comfortable with.

Good management is not, ironically, rocket science.

Re: Tesla fires hundreds from headquarters, factory

#185

Post by aslkdjaslkdj » Sat, Oct 14, 2017, 2:10 PM UTC

LoSboccacc wrote: post #47

wpietri wrote: post #29

Do other companies do this? Unless this is GE-style force ranking, I've never heard of it. If somebody isn't performing well, I have no idea why I'd wait up to a year to deal with it. And it seems terrible for morale (and PR) to have a regular event where a bunch of people will be let go in one block.

most large IT company do, including amazon google and ibm

Amazon and Google both do PIPs before firing low performing employees. That means several months (usually 6 or more) of pay and time to find a new job. It also means your employer isn't in the news with "Everyone who left in October is a low performer you shouldn't hire."

Re: Tesla fires hundreds from headquarters, factory

#186

Post by 2dvisio » Sat, Oct 14, 2017, 2:20 PM UTC

koevet wrote: post #109

leereeves wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [Musk] also joked to employees they would be going through “production hell” to meet demand for the new car. It sounds like taking sick days, vacation days, and going home at 5pm is exactly what Musk doesn't want from employees. Germans are fortunate to have those benefits guaranteed by law (and culture).

This is not for Germany only. The majority of EU contries have similar benefits guaranteed by the law.

And they are called Rights, not benefits.

Re: Tesla fires hundreds from headquarters, factory

#187

Post by yellow_postit » Sat, Oct 14, 2017, 2:21 PM UTC

dmode wrote: post #94

thereisnospork wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

without commenting on the unfairness -- as an employee, if you aren't prepared for this to happen to you, then you are doing yourself a disservice and are improperly managing your finances. Any and all of us can, and some will be, 'fired' for less with less.

Often it is not about financial preparedness. It is about uncertainty. When will I get my next job? 6 months? Which means I will burn through my savings. If you are on a visa then things become exponentially complicated - you don't get unemployment insurance, benefits. What about healthcare ? COBRA is prohibitively expensive. How about the fact that the company announced to the entire world that you are a low perform…

All of the concerns you mentioned can be related to financial preparedness. Given a skill set and job market how long do cash to cover rent, health insurance, etc. The emotional uncertainty can be huge of course with job loss, but removing financial stress from that possibility should be a goal for most.

Re: Tesla fires hundreds from headquarters, factory

#188

Post by lishzen » Sat, Oct 14, 2017, 2:23 PM UTC

closeparen wrote: post #63

mc32 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Admittedly it's a small fraction. To me, while not a communist by any means, I do think that cos. often simply think about he employee-employer relationship as unidirectional: the employee owes the employer but I see more and the company owes society at large to support its workers, where it can. Not saying they should carry inept unqualified workers, but that they should make some effort to place mal-assigned worker…

Projecting responsibility for societal well-being onto for-profit employers is crazy. If we think everyone deserves something, we need to provision it directly as a society. Corporations are poor stewards of our welfare, and trying to coerce them into this role (i.e. minimum wage, healthcare mandate, obligation to hold on to unneeded workers like you propose here) has the nasty side-effect of inhibiting potentially b…

If corporations are suddenly liberated from labor regulations they are not going to reverse their decisions and sell the robots to employ more people or make part-time employees full-time. Cost cutting is a war of multiple fronts.

Labor regulation has the same effect as taxes, the money just doesn't go through the government. Higher taxes and no labor regulation would have similar consequences in corporate profit-seeking decisions, because corporations are the ones paying most taxes anyway.

Besides, there is no clean separation between government and corporations, I think it is improbable that taxes are raised after getting rid of labor regulations.

Re: Tesla fires hundreds from headquarters, factory

#189

Post by sjwright » Sat, Oct 14, 2017, 2:24 PM UTC

throwawayknecht wrote: post #183

sjwright wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An invalid (and thoroughly disgusting) analogy. You are conflating murder and death in a rather untidy way, and hoping that the disgust for the analogy taints that which we're making an analogy about. If you like the theme of murder: How would it be different if a prison, rather than executing death row inmates on the first day they were legally permitted, instead delayed their executions so they could bundle them up…

That's not the same at all, though. The prison is doing the same thing they would be doing, only on a different schedule. Tesla has demanded that firings be carried out at the same rate as average attrition for poor performance, even though those two things have different causes and remedies. People who perform the least-well on their team but are still a (potentially large!) net benefit are generally not fired, but…

There are so many assumptions in your posts that it's really not worth responding to them.

Re: Tesla fires hundreds from headquarters, factory

#190

Post by wooter » Sat, Oct 14, 2017, 2:26 PM UTC

mcny wrote: post #179

jaimex2 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in Australia and something like this seems very weird, you sometimes take for granted fair work laws till you see what happens in countries without them.

When I read about pip, I keep going back to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11299310 I think even if we had regulations and requirements like that in the US, it would quickly devolve into a charade. Basically, a six month pip would be the same as a six month notice with the option to fire you any time anyway.

Dumb law IMO. I like at-will employment. I would be pissed if my company was paying 14k on my behalf for something so unnecessary. I can budget my education much better than the government, thanks.