Live data from Hacker News

Tesla fires hundreds from headquarters, factory

mercurynews.com

171–180 of 268 posts

Re: Tesla fires hundreds from headquarters, factory

#171
post #49

I know someone who just got fired in this round at Tesla. His manager never communicated to him that he was a bad performer. He was not on a PIP or any performance plans. He was also working on Model 3. One fine morning his manager called him and said this would be his last day. He is a single income earner and was so shocked by this news that he is getting borderline depressed. They offered only 2 weeks of severance…

>They offered only 2 weeks of severance.

It sucks for him, but I hope he learns in future not to sign bad contracts. A day's notice and 2 weeks severance is super bad and I would not have signed it unless the pay was extremely good, as in so good I wouldn't have to worry about getting another job straight away.

EDIT: based on the downvotes many people here could use this advice: DO NOT SIGN BAD CONTRACTS!

Re: Tesla fires hundreds from headquarters, factory

#172
post #49

I know someone who just got fired in this round at Tesla. His manager never communicated to him that he was a bad performer. He was not on a PIP or any performance plans. He was also working on Model 3. One fine morning his manager called him and said this would be his last day. He is a single income earner and was so shocked by this news that he is getting borderline depressed. They offered only 2 weeks of severance…

> I know someone who just got fired in this round at Tesla. ... They offered only 2 weeks of severance. Fired or layed off? I've never experienced either, but I always thought severance pay was exclusive to the latter.

If you're fired for doing something bad, then you become ineligible for unemployment compensation (which is something you earned) and some other benefits. This creates a perverse incentive to claim a cause for termination. On the other hand, it also creates an incentive for the fired employee to sue, especially if they think that the employer didn't have an utterly bulletproof paper trail and discipline procedures.

For this reason, it's sometimes more practical for a company to terminate someone without cause, and just pay out the benefits as a cost of doing business. They can wait for a slow season, when they would normally shed some workers, and terminate the lowest performers.

Companies avoid the term "layoff" because it has connotations, such as eligibility to be re-hired when conditions improve. So they use "reduction in force" instead. The people who are fired are "impacted," and so forth.

The terminology used doesn't mean anything... what matters is whether someone was terminated "with cause" or not.

Re: Tesla fires hundreds from headquarters, factory

#173
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's really interesting. The Economist ran a story earlier about how aggressive Musk's finances are and how there was weird finance going on and that Musk was simultaneously trying to keep things afloat, keep on a super aggressive schedule and keep control. https://www.economist.com/news/business/21709061-entrepreneu... Perhaps the wheels are starting to come off. Even if they do, it's been amazing what has been ac…

From afar, it seems that's just how musk did about everything. SpaceX was a potential catastrophy, but they passed the tipping point successfully. Everything Musk does is "adventure" like, which is unsurprisingly good for employee stability. It's a bit like Jobs at Apple. You're gonna suffer, maybe get fire but you worked on "that" project.

[deleted]

Re: Tesla fires hundreds from headquarters, factory

#174
post #48

High-level executives at Tesla are bailing out. Back when Musk announced his overoptimistic production schedule for the Model 3, his two top production executives quit.[1] Nine more high-level executives have left so far this year.[2] [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-05-04/two-tesla... [2] https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2017/08/02/tesla-ts...

I'm not sure you can read into these three you linked. Josh Ensign left to become COO at a different company and his stint at Tesla was the longest in his list of experience: https://www.linkedin.com/in/josh-ensign-3604431/ Greg Reichow worked at Tesla for 5.5 years and switched jobs to become an investor: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gregreichow/ Kurt Kelty was at Panasonic for 14 years and Tesla for 11.5. As far as…

I may be conservative, but I don't consider burnout to be on a "fine" side of things.

Re: Tesla fires hundreds from headquarters, factory

#175
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So companies should follow the law? I think you're really arguing for better employee protection in the USA ?

I interpreted the post as meaning when a company is given millions of dollars in tax breaks, i.e., build your new factory here and your income tax is abated for X years, then they should be on the hook for when they let go of employees. In theory I agree and the company should be on the hook to provide training or assistance.

So why weren't employee protection or training part of the tax break? Same point.

Re: Tesla fires hundreds from headquarters, factory

#176
post #49

I know someone who just got fired in this round at Tesla. His manager never communicated to him that he was a bad performer. He was not on a PIP or any performance plans. He was also working on Model 3. One fine morning his manager called him and said this would be his last day. He is a single income earner and was so shocked by this news that he is getting borderline depressed. They offered only 2 weeks of severance…

> I know someone who just got fired in this round at Tesla. ... They offered only 2 weeks of severance. Fired or layed off? I've never experienced either, but I always thought severance pay was exclusive to the latter.

At least in my state (MA) a while ago being fired with cause means not eligible for unemployment[1]. I knew this from someone (last century) being fired for being overheard quoting "office space" the movie on the phone, and therefor suspected of being dangerous. He was not given a chance to defend himself, but hated the job anyway.

"PETER Boy. I tell ya, one of these days... One of these days it's gonna be like

He mimics a machine gun. Brian, a waiter, does it too, in Peter's face."

He went to hearing to get his unemployment, and won because the layer from bigco, sent to the hearing from out of state literally wouldn't answer any questions.

http://www.masslegalhelp.org/employment-unemployment/ui-if-f...

Re: Tesla fires hundreds from headquarters, factory

#177
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure you can read into these three you linked. Josh Ensign left to become COO at a different company and his stint at Tesla was the longest in his list of experience: https://www.linkedin.com/in/josh-ensign-3604431/ Greg Reichow worked at Tesla for 5.5 years and switched jobs to become an investor: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gregreichow/ Kurt Kelty was at Panasonic for 14 years and Tesla for 11.5. As far as…

I may be conservative, but I don't consider burnout to be on a "fine" side of things.

11.5 years in a fast paced company that makes very ambitious deadlines is an incredible stint for anyone IMO. I'm just saying burnout after that isn't surprising, no?

Re: Tesla fires hundreds from headquarters, factory

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it is exactly this style of management that is causing problems at the German automation plant he aquired (see my comment in the duplicate thread). It is probably a reason why production of the Model 3 is behind -- the company he acquired builds the factory robots needed for advanced automation. Smart move to acquire it then and it explains why the timing is now off. You can't run a German plant like an American…

> [Musk] also joked to employees they would be going through “production hell” to meet demand for the new car. It sounds like taking sick days, vacation days, and going home at 5pm is exactly what Musk doesn't want from employees. Germans are fortunate to have those benefits guaranteed by law (and culture).

I think you can always get rid of workers if you are willing to pay enough.

What is the maximum compensation German courts award for unlawfully firing an worker? Something like 1-4 years salary is my guess.

If Musk want's to fire 2% of German workers every year, he could budget 2 - 8 percent more for his labor cost.

Re: Tesla fires hundreds from headquarters, factory

#179
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, in Switzerland, for instance, a company is required to offer "job relocation" services for employees that have been working for the company for some years (I'm not sure how many exactly). These services (re-teach how to write a CV, how to prepare yourself for an interview, etc.) cost between 10K and 14K CHF per employee.

I'm in Australia and something like this seems very weird, you sometimes take for granted fair work laws till you see what happens in countries without them.

When I read about pip, I keep going back to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11299310

I think even if we had regulations and requirements like that in the US, it would quickly devolve into a charade. Basically, a six month pip would be the same as a six month notice with the option to fire you any time anyway.

Re: Tesla fires hundreds from headquarters, factory

#180
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not for Germany only. The majority of EU contries have similar benefits guaranteed by the law.

I always wondered why laws are needed to require benefits. Seems like working for someone is a consensual choice that ought be regulated by the free market itself. Other than physical safety regulations, seems like the rest of it is government overreach. It’s also weird to me that a “contract” covers “workers” rather than a contact negotiated by each worker. Seems rather Marxist to me to consider workers as interchan…

>Seems like working for someone is a consensual choice that ought be regulated by the free market itself.

It's because the free market is a myth, and what actually exists is all kinds of forces playing against each other, using influence, media, money, laws, and the government for their purposes.

Now, the most powerful forces are those of the people with (m/b)illions in the bank, expensive layers, friends in high places and the ability to move their operations wherever they want, and those are rarely people looking for work -- rather they the people looking for employees.

Which is why laws are required. Because a democratic government represents each person equally -- each has one vote, regardless of their wealth (again in theory, like there's no free market, there's also no actual democratic government). So it serves as a counter-balance between small people and big people/coprs (governments can be in bed with big people/corps but they need to pander to small people too in order get their vote).

Add to that, the fact that without any government at all, you don't get anywhere close to a free market either.

At best you'll get the heavier players doing everything they like -- and having private armies and thugs enabling them, to which regular people can just suck it and play along.

This has been the case in some places in developing countries for example, where, while there nominally a government exists, it's so in the pockets of the local moguls that it's just like their private mercenary enforcement force.

>Some guy might not care about 30 days vacation but might prefer more money, as an example.

Without any kind of legal pressure, guys and gals are gonna get neither "30 days vacation" nor "more money".

Post reply on HN