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An anarchist takes on Big Pharma by teaching patients to make their own meds

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Re: An anarchist takes on Big Pharma by teaching patients to make their own meds

#221
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Find stuff that's off-patent and build generics" There are a lot of companies that do that.

But yet things like Epi-Pen price increases occur, so it seems like there's room for a lot more.

You should consider the fact that EpiPen is 'off patent' and that it is priced at some high number by a generic company and that there apparently are no others.

The 'market is speaking'.

If it were in way lucrative, someone would be doing it.

I suggest that it's just a very expensive thing to develop and make, and there isn't a huge demand - otherwise, someone probably would.

Now, $600 seems just crazy to me, and like you, my instinct might be 'there's room for someone' - but in reality, it's never that easy.

My father worked in Pharma, and once sold a small empty building on behalf of a company for huge $$$ to a Chinese firm - only because it was 'approved' by the Canadian government for making drugs of a certain quality, and that this approval would have been very expensive to obtain. This is just at the top of the list of how many regulatory issues there are in making drugs - and why they are so expensive.

I mean it does seem a little crazy that there are $600 EpiPen's but no others - when anyone can make them, but that's where we are.

Re: An anarchist takes on Big Pharma by teaching patients to make their own meds

#222
Lots of medicines are straightforward to manufacture, and as long as you're careful and follow the same sorts of risk-mitigating procedures and quality assurance steps that you would expect from a manufacturer, you would be served no worse by your own generic brand.

That said, ideally we could fix the medicine-specific patent law craziness (and the regulatory inefficiency which necessitates it). Obviously, the specifics are much more complicated than anyone with a side to pick is willing to admit.

Re: An anarchist takes on Big Pharma by teaching patients to make their own meds

#223
post #6

Honest question: What does it even mean to be an anarchist these days? What is the default "anarchist"? Because Wikipedia isn't really helping.

I'm not sure if this is where you were going with this, but I think this is a subtle attempt of the author to discredit or impugn the target of the article. They could have used the term "libertarian" or "protester" or "political objector" but they go all the way to use "anarchist" as if people making medicine to save their own lives or maintain their own autonomy somehow equates to anarchy. This to me illustrates in…

The attempt was not that subtle. IMO the author spends a considerable amount of time openly mocking Laufer, with the clear implication being that if you cannot take the man seriously how can you do the same for his ideas.

Re: An anarchist takes on Big Pharma by teaching patients to make their own meds

#224
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I 100% support a drug bounty program, where the government puts up a huge bounty (I.e. $1-3bn) for diseases where cures/treatments are needed, and pharma companies compete for those bounties. Victors would get the full bounty, and the govt would get the rights to the drug. Would allow the public to incentivize treatments that are best for public health, since companies are incentivized to create long-lasting, expensi…

Of course, that money would come out of your taxes as a US citizen. And since you'd still have to pay for the drug (even at the reduced price), you would just effectively be creating socialized medicine.

The bounty could be for all drugs, some drugs, or just the super important ones. Scale the system to however much socialized medicine you can take.

Re: An anarchist takes on Big Pharma by teaching patients to make their own meds

#225
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Someone arrives in an ambulance near-death, if I lack morals then one level of maximized extraction price is to have those patients commit to pay a value that represents the earning potential for that person for the rest of their life. They have to agree before getting admitted. Actual markets don't work that way. If you could actually make that much money then someone would open a competing emergency room right ac…

> Actual markets don't work that way. Isn't that exactly what's happening in slower motion with the incredible price hikes in many drugs such as insulin? And you assume that the neighborhood can sustain two emergency rooms - a second competitor isn't going to arise if the setup costs are high and the competitor can't undercut and survive the competition phase. This is exactly why there aren't multiple competitors to…

> Isn't that exactly what's happening in slower motion with the incredible price hikes in many drugs such as insulin?

Again, the market for medicine suffers from regulatory capture. The regulations make it prohibitively expensive (literally millions of dollars) for new competitors to enter the market, which allows the incumbents to conspire to fix prices.

If we had the same standards for manufacturing medicine as we have for manufacturing food, that wouldn't be happening.

> And you assume that the neighborhood can sustain two emergency rooms - a second competitor isn't going to arise if the setup costs are high and the competitor can't undercut and survive the competition phase.

All you need is for the profits from entering the market to exceed the entry cost, which is exactly the case when the existing provider is charging outrageously high prices.

It is certainly true that adding a competitor will increase total costs. But that means total costs will at most double. That's not good, but it's not anywhere near as bad as having a monopoly that can demand your lifetime earnings in exchange for saving your life.

And everybody knows that to begin with, which is why you get this:

> This is exactly why there aren't multiple competitors to residential ISPs, because after the risk and costs are factored in setting up overcapacity for a market isn't a good investment.

It would be a good investment if the incumbent ISP was charging $500/month for residential internet service. But they know if they did that then it would open the door to a competitor who could charge $400/month and still pay the cost of duplicating the entire infrastructure.

So instead the incumbent charges $50-$100/month, even in areas where they have a monopoly, because they know that price is low enough to deter new competitors from entering.

A credible threat of competition is enough to prevent prices from becoming completely outrageous even in areas where there continues to be a monopoly in practice. Only monopolies under no threat of competition, like the ones enforced through patents or Certificate of Need laws, can charge outrageous prices without that happening.

Re: An anarchist takes on Big Pharma by teaching patients to make their own meds

#227

That seems both super dangerous, and super awesome. It's not something that we should have to consider. But this is the world we live in, now; legitimate supply lines of life-saving medicine have collapsed for a fair number of people. I understand why people might be troubled by someone actively going out and advocating this as opposed to simply making the information available, but if you're offered medicine with 95…

Collapsed?

Or were supply lines selectively destroyed by market-cornering adversaries, knowingly, according to the degree of “demand” which might be extracted?

Re: An anarchist takes on Big Pharma by teaching patients to make their own meds

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My problem is: It's in the public interest for these drugs to exist, but how do we keep drug companies from becoming an industrial complex ala Lockheed/Boeing? They should be non-profits.

Developing drugs is very expensive. It takes years of research, most of which fails. I.e. out of the various molecules being researched, only few actually make it through all the trials and approval and get to market. Due to the risk, investors are looking for high returns from successful drugs.

Due to that risk, the wast majority of base research aren't funded by investors. NiH funding for medical research is the single biggest researcher in the world, with a annual research budget of $26.4 billion. All that is paid double by the citizens, first through taxes and then again through insurance/drug cost.

Now imagine if we had a regulation that both forbade universities from issuing patents and limited the price of any drug that is initially based on public funded research.

Re: An anarchist takes on Big Pharma by teaching patients to make their own meds

#229
post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't defend the status quo. I think this is the right way to resolve healthcare. I agree with about 95% of this: https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=231949 We just need smarter regulations: > every medical facility needs to have a price for each billing code > every healthcare facility has to publish their prices > heatlh care facilities must honor their published prices for everyone > if someone needs car and…

Healthcare often isn't billable in consistent units. Someone goes in for surgery, and they get opened up, despite pre-imaging, there are complex things that can go wrong and instead of a 1 hr 10k effort, you need to put in a 6 hours 100k effort? how is that billed? are you going to require statistics of probabily of going wrong too? By the time you get all these 'consistent billing units' figured out for all the mult…

how is it billed?

Go ask the people who get jobs as billers - most hosptials have more billers than beds, they can sort it out.

Before you go to surgery agree on the price of everything and ask for a video so you can verify the work was done as billed and there wasn't any padding. In an emergency situation, you're entitled to the price they advertise. IF you can't afford it, the government picks up the bill and maybe you pay for it, maybe you don't. If you want insurance, you can buy insurance but let the insurers use every actuarially relevant bit of information so the insurance works as insurance

Re: An anarchist takes on Big Pharma by teaching patients to make their own meds

#230
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Actual markets don't work that way. Isn't that exactly what's happening in slower motion with the incredible price hikes in many drugs such as insulin? And you assume that the neighborhood can sustain two emergency rooms - a second competitor isn't going to arise if the setup costs are high and the competitor can't undercut and survive the competition phase. This is exactly why there aren't multiple competitors to…

> Isn't that exactly what's happening in slower motion with the incredible price hikes in many drugs such as insulin? Again, the market for medicine suffers from regulatory capture. The regulations make it prohibitively expensive (literally millions of dollars) for new competitors to enter the market, which allows the incumbents to conspire to fix prices. If we had the same standards for manufacturing medicine as we…

Did you read the linked article? A generic maker of generic drugs in dramatically increasing prices with no sign of the entrance of competitors. Competition can enter but the barriers are too high - even without any government protection remaining on the generics in question.

The competition doesn't pay the cost of duplicating production - not after the competition has lowered the price. At least the chance of that is why no one tries to enter.

To make even the generics at a reasonable quality is a barrier sufficient in an of itself. And a competitor risks the incumbent lowering the prices to cut off the incumbent - no investor is signing up for that expensive fight as evidenced by the article... generics are rising in price to reflecting the effectiveness of the barriers. (well and lack of price regulation by our healthcare system)

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