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An anarchist takes on Big Pharma by teaching patients to make their own meds

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Re: An anarchist takes on Big Pharma by teaching patients to make their own meds

#201

Interesting assertion from the FAQ on Michael Laufer's website[1]: > Q: What about quality control? A: It’s important to know that making small quantities of a chemical is vastly different than making it on an industrial scale. The chemistry isn’t even the same. This is a big reason why chemical engineering is an entire field of study. With smaller reactions, while you do have to be more precise in your measurements…

The most obvious element is heat: heat production grows at the same rate as volume, but heat dissipation grows at the same rate as surface area. So larger scales invariably end up running hotter (particularly when energetic exothermic reactions are involved), and temperature plays a major role in the kinematics of chemical reactions.

The same surface area/volume issue in bulk also plays into reactions that happen at the margins of materials rather than the bulk--metal-catalyzed reactions are a common example.

Re: An anarchist takes on Big Pharma by teaching patients to make their own meds

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“”” Noam Chomsky: Well, anarchism is, in my view, basically a kind of tendency in human thought which shows up in different forms in different circumstances, and has some leading characteristics. Primarily it is a tendency that is suspicious and skeptical of domination, authority, and hierarchy. It seeks structures of hierarchy and domination in human life over the whole range, extending from, say, patriarchal famili…

Vs the classical conservative world view in which order, even if it's unjust, is usually better for everyone, even the people on the bottom, than chaos; and that dismantling power structures, if done suddenly or without care, is more likely to result in chaos than in a new, more just, order. I've been wondering lately if there is room for the notion of a conservative anarchist, who questions hierarchy but dismantles…

> Vs the classical conservative world view [...]

Your phrasing implies that Chomsky supports acting "suddenly or without care", which is not the case at all.

Re: An anarchist takes on Big Pharma by teaching patients to make their own meds

#203
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I don't think one can generically fault "regulation" for a poorly performing health market in the US. You're absolutely right, however, I do think the worst parts of our medical system exist as consequences of regulation. The mandate that emergency rooms treat anyone who enters is onerous and there's no free lunch, paying customers are stuck with the bill. The licencing system isn't optimal for cost effective care…

> The mandate that emergency rooms treat anyone who enters is onerous and there's no free lunch, paying customers are stuck with the bill. I don't think that's onerous, I think that is a minimal, and admittedly imperfect, expression of our societal intent that people shouldn't die unnecessarily in emergency rooms - either from lack of being able to pay; nor from a practical standpoint, lack or delay of on-hand proof…

> Someone arrives in an ambulance near-death, if I lack morals then one level of maximized extraction price is to have those patients commit to pay a value that represents the earning potential for that person for the rest of their life. They have to agree before getting admitted.

Actual markets don't work that way. If you could actually make that much money then someone would open a competing emergency room right across the street, let everyone know that they charge $1 less and take all the business. Then the first emergency room would charge $2 less to take it back, until they're both charging reasonable prices.

It's the same reason you don't have to sign your life away to buy food even though you would die without it.

The problem in the US is that the regulations on the market for medical services work almost the exact opposite of that. There is no price transparency at all so you have no idea which facilities are more expensive. And if someone wants to open a competing facility, they have to get a Certificate of Need proving that the existing facilities don't have enough capacity. Even though having enough capacity doesn't preclude charging outrageous prices in the absence of competition.

> I see universal healthcare with a shared cost-pool as the lowest overhead way to provide for our social moral desires (but then I'm not in fear of the regulation with may be needed to implement that policy).

The existing US system is pure corruption. It's heavily regulated but the regulations are a result of regulatory capture by insurance companies (who want higher costs because higher costs means more vig), and all the industries the insurance money pays for like pharma.

The result is that medicine in the US is outrageously expensive. But the expense doesn't go away even with universal coverage unless you fix the regulations, and if you did that then people would be able to afford medicine out of pocket without insurance.

Re: An anarchist takes on Big Pharma by teaching patients to make their own meds

#204
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cost of medicine I require to be functional enough to hold down a job has risen so much that the copay is the equivalent of the entire out-of-pocket cost from a few years ago. The medication was discovered in 1969. The application method, which is the shitty excuse for the patents protecting its $2,200/month price tag, was first approved for use by the FDA in 1979. The drug has been for sale in it's current form…

Can you not just get it from an online Canadian pharmacy?

I hadn't thought of that before, but from searching today, it doesn't look an actual 'canadian pharmacy' is findable among the colossal numbers of non-canadian companies shifting cheap generics.

And, since this isn't a generic, or even a pill that can be copied, they aren't stocking it. :(

Re: An anarchist takes on Big Pharma by teaching patients to make their own meds

#205
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Argubly regulation is the problem we're in this mess. Do you think an epipen would cost $600 if there weren't a Government granted monopoly? All property is government intervention. And property is good. Because property is capitalism, and capitalism is God's will. /s

I sometimes feel like "free-market" types are actually incapable of understanding this point. The idea that markets and property exist as some sort of independent, empirical objects is baked so deeply into their ideology that it's almost as if they lack the symbolic vocabulary to even conceptualize the idea that property itself is created by regulations.

Property is created by government, but markets are more like evolution or society; a system that emerges naturally out of multiple separate but interacting agents given the right set of conditions (namely, scarcity and the ability to exchange goods and services).

Even in places like East Germany or prison where overt markets are suppressed, people still exchange things with each other, even developing bootleg currencies such as loose cigarettes. And if there’s a sudden shortage of a specific good inside these black markets, the price will go up; likewise if there’s a sudden surplus, the price will go down; likewise; if there’s a sudden surplus in whatever good is used as a currency (e.g. cigarettes) then there will be inflation, at least until its cost-effective to switch currencies.

Re: An anarchist takes on Big Pharma by teaching patients to make their own meds

#206

Interesting assertion from the FAQ on Michael Laufer's website[1]: > Q: What about quality control? A: It’s important to know that making small quantities of a chemical is vastly different than making it on an industrial scale. The chemistry isn’t even the same. This is a big reason why chemical engineering is an entire field of study. With smaller reactions, while you do have to be more precise in your measurements…

For industrial scale, yield becomes an much more important concern. There are also physical considerations like the square-cube law.

I'm not a chemist but several times I've seen comments along the lines of "you can do this at home by doing (simple procedure), however in the industry, it is done like that (complex procedure)".

Re: An anarchist takes on Big Pharma by teaching patients to make their own meds

#207
post #145
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are these outcomes you describe actually bad? While I believe in the rule of law, the fact is that law has been bent to serve the wealthy and powerful. Perhaps such lawbreaking is simply the symptom of the disease as Dr. Prasad says, which is (patent laws that allow current) drug pricing.

I was only speaking to rayiner's a) attempt to break the analogy between physical theft and piracy, and b) insistence that teaching DIY production of patented drugs "doesn't offend" the monopoly. But yes, I strongly believe that it's a very bad economic model that insists that drugs -- or any physical good for that matter -- should (in any sense of "should") be sold at marginal production cost.

[deleted]

Re: An anarchist takes on Big Pharma by teaching patients to make their own meds

#208
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cost of medicine I require to be functional enough to hold down a job has risen so much that the copay is the equivalent of the entire out-of-pocket cost from a few years ago. The medication was discovered in 1969. The application method, which is the shitty excuse for the patents protecting its $2,200/month price tag, was first approved for use by the FDA in 1979. The drug has been for sale in it's current form…

I am astonished that a couple of the biggest insurance companies in the US haven't banded together to form a drug manufacturing co-op. Find stuff that's off-patent and build generics for things like epi-pens. The best bit (to my thinking) is after doing this to just a few drugs, the insurance companies would have a very big negotiating stick to go after other companies pricing off-patent drugs way over cost. If I kne…

The insurance companies aren't really paying these prices. I wouldn't be surprised if that $2,200/month out of pocket price got knocked down to for 'bulk purchase' ending up with the insurance companies making more than they did before the price hike, and with more leverage over the customers due to the 'costs' involved.

Re: An anarchist takes on Big Pharma by teaching patients to make their own meds

#209
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that is the primary obstacle, you can have a design which assigns money to a private research organization to develop drugs for government. Also, current pharma will be biased against any cost effective solutions as this will cut their margins. There's got to be some alternative path to research and bring in these treatments to the public.

I 100% support a drug bounty program, where the government puts up a huge bounty (I.e. $1-3bn) for diseases where cures/treatments are needed, and pharma companies compete for those bounties. Victors would get the full bounty, and the govt would get the rights to the drug. Would allow the public to incentivize treatments that are best for public health, since companies are incentivized to create long-lasting, expensi…

Of course, that money would come out of your taxes as a US citizen. And since you'd still have to pay for the drug (even at the reduced price), you would just effectively be creating socialized medicine.

Re: An anarchist takes on Big Pharma by teaching patients to make their own meds

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Long term don't these companies think that charging outrageous prices for drugs will cause a future voter/government backlash of some sort No, because it demonstrably won't. People say they're angry and then do nothing about it. The US has an entire political party angrily decrying any effort to regulate healthcare as socialist slavery. The drug companies know they'll be just fine. Maybe some token slaps on the wris…

Don’t get lost barking up the partisan tree, most Americans aren’t the enemy. Both parties are different flavors of corrupt (Gore Vidal’s Property party): one ignores their base while taking corporate money and the other panders to extremists and also takes the same blood money.

It's a sliding scale, but it's not close to balanced right now. Saying things along the line of 'different sides of the same coin' does not make sense.
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