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ProseMirror 1.0

marijnhaverbeke.nl

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Re: ProseMirror 1.0

#51

Post by hitekker »

bjoernm wrote: post #45
hitekker wrote: post #33

The true test of ProseMirror, SlateJS, and all these new augmented text-editors will not be comments, posts or even blog articles. It will be Wikipages. A visual editor for a wikipage is the crystallization of the semantic-content conflict as described eloquently by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WYSIWYM To date, despite a stream of donations and years of development, Wikimedia has failed to develop an editor that is…

We’re building the wiki engine https://www.nuclino.com based on Prosemirror. It would be great to get your feedback on it! I think a single editing mode is the way to go and Prosemirror's flexibility allows us to strike a great balance between usability for non-technical users (via menus) and speed for technical users (via markdown commands).

I find the UI of your website to be intuitive and attractive, although I'm probably not the customer you have in mind.

Can these WikiPages be made public to non team users? I.e., made public?

This is likely a non-issue for your product, seeing as it is team-oriented rather than community-oriented.

Re: ProseMirror 1.0

#52

Post by leeoniya »

hitekker wrote: post #38
mattberkowitz wrote: post #31

Hello, from The New York Times CMS team. We have been working with ProseMirror for the last year and a half or so. Congratulations, it's great to see this finally reach 1.0! Some of the things we've found really great about working with ProseMirror: - Separation of the data model from the rendered display has allowed us to extract things like tracked changes and comments which we traditionally embedded as HTML tags i…

Nice overview on the pros of ProseMirror. When you were surveying the editor-landscape, what made you choose ProseMirror over its competitors?

i think the most similar lib to ProseMirror is http://bustle.github.io/mobiledoc-kit/demo/

Re: ProseMirror 1.0

#53

Post by hitekker »

KaoruAoiShiho wrote: post #40

How does it compare with other modern solutions like https://quilljs.com/ ?

I wouldn't use Quill.

The developers are passive-aggressive to the notion of rendering Quill content outside of the Quill Editor, having ripped out the APIs to do so from newer versions, and silencing conversations in their Github Issues.

You can see the latest flare-ups here: https://github.com/quilljs/quill/issues/993

The project also has secondary smells such as inventing weird names for existing concepts; 'Delta', for example instead of 'data source' or something more intelligible.

Lastly, it markets itself as feature-complete, but has failed to implement support for something as basic as tables, which have been repeatedly requested for the past 3 years.

Personally, I would be afraid to build anything mission-critical upon it.

Re: ProseMirror 1.0

#54

Post by hitekker »

marijn wrote: post #48
jhchen wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Author of Quill here. Interested in hearing Marjin’s thoughts but here are some of my main observation is at a high level Prosemirror is much more willing than Quill to sacrifice simplicity for power. This value difference manifests in the target audience, architecture and API design: Quill can be used for the get going quickly drop in use case. Prosemirror specifically warns against this: “If you're looking for a si…

> Interested in hearing Marjin’s [sic] thoughts Sure. I think it's fair to say that ProseMirror is a more ambitious project, reaching for features that aren't part of (even the new crop of) existing libraries. * Firstly, the schema feature. ProseMirror's content expressions [1] are a regular language that can be used to describe a sequence of child nodes. The editor will make sure the content of the node always match…

Also, ProseMirror is definitely seeing wider adoption than the parent implies. Even from this thread alone, we're seeing Atlassian and startups pop-up attesting to its good design.

Your points are fundamentally correct, and I would argue that your parent is attempting to limit the potential of ProseMirror, in order to preserve the need for Quill.

Re: ProseMirror 1.0

#55

Post by mattberkowitz »

hitekker wrote: post #38
mattberkowitz wrote: post #31

Hello, from The New York Times CMS team. We have been working with ProseMirror for the last year and a half or so. Congratulations, it's great to see this finally reach 1.0! Some of the things we've found really great about working with ProseMirror: - Separation of the data model from the rendered display has allowed us to extract things like tracked changes and comments which we traditionally embedded as HTML tags i…

Nice overview on the pros of ProseMirror. When you were surveying the editor-landscape, what made you choose ProseMirror over its competitors?

At the time we started revamping our editing interface many of the options were still in early/incomplete places. I think ProseMirror had an funding campaign at the time that didn't meet its goal initially, although did later on in a second attempt. Ultimately we decided to venture down the path of building our own editor, which was based on a combination of our own learnings in text editing and a collaborative system some folks in our graphics department had put together.

About 6 months in, near the start of 2016, when moving on from the exploration/demo stage of the project to actually building out the real deal we took another look at the landscape and decided to move to ProseMirror. I don't remember the exact points that went into the decision but transitioning from our in house solution to ProseMirror felt pretty natural as they followed similar design philosophies.

Re: ProseMirror 1.0

#56

Post by hitekker »

mattberkowitz wrote: post #55
hitekker wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice overview on the pros of ProseMirror. When you were surveying the editor-landscape, what made you choose ProseMirror over its competitors?

At the time we started revamping our editing interface many of the options were still in early/incomplete places. I think ProseMirror had an funding campaign at the time that didn't meet its goal initially, although did later on in a second attempt. Ultimately we decided to venture down the path of building our own editor, which was based on a combination of our own learnings in text editing and a collaborative syste…

Thanks for the response!

You went down the hard path of rolling out your own editor, and used the knowledge gained to choose a worthy successor.

I'm impressed. I should give ProseMirror another shot.

Re: ProseMirror 1.0

#57

Post by accordionclown »

hitekker wrote: post #54
marijn wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Interested in hearing Marjin’s [sic] thoughts Sure. I think it's fair to say that ProseMirror is a more ambitious project, reaching for features that aren't part of (even the new crop of) existing libraries. * Firstly, the schema feature. ProseMirror's content expressions [1] are a regular language that can be used to describe a sequence of child nodes. The editor will make sure the content of the node always match…

Also, ProseMirror is definitely seeing wider adoption than the parent implies. Even from this thread alone, we're seeing Atlassian and startups pop-up attesting to its good design. Your points are fundamentally correct, and I would argue that your parent is attempting to limit the potential of ProseMirror, in order to preserve the need for Quill.

there's more than enough room for everyone.

indeed, there will be demand for more/different products even after both of these competitors maximize their reach.

Re: ProseMirror 1.0

#58

Post by mattberkowitz »

mattberkowitz wrote: post #55
hitekker wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice overview on the pros of ProseMirror. When you were surveying the editor-landscape, what made you choose ProseMirror over its competitors?

At the time we started revamping our editing interface many of the options were still in early/incomplete places. I think ProseMirror had an funding campaign at the time that didn't meet its goal initially, although did later on in a second attempt. Ultimately we decided to venture down the path of building our own editor, which was based on a combination of our own learnings in text editing and a collaborative syste…

I also think the fact that Marijn had CodeMirror on his resume helped with our willingness to take a risk on a pre 1.0 library

Re: ProseMirror 1.0

#59

Post by fiatjaf »

porker wrote: post #37
fiatjaf wrote: post #25

I love CodeMirror and like very much the content of the Marijn's blog posts I've read, but I must say ProseMirror is a nightmare to work with. I guess the problem is that there is too much customization options, no sane defaults, no understandable tutorials, many different overlapping API and documentation versions. I've tried a lot to get it working for https://github.com/fiatjaf/coisas and only managed to make it w…

Have you looked at Quill https://quilljs.com/ ? I was looking at text editors yesterday for a new project, where I want to represent images as either custom tags or placeholders that get transformed (in the system the image is known by its storage ID, not a URL) and Quill looked easier to work with than ProseMirror.

I have looked at it and don't remember why I didn't end up using it. Perhaps due to my ignorance, I have probably thought it wasn't capable of outputting Markdown seamlessly, and that was really necessary for https://github.com/fiatjaf/coisas/.

Re: ProseMirror 1.0

#60

Post by wes-k »

hitekker wrote: post #33

The true test of ProseMirror, SlateJS, and all these new augmented text-editors will not be comments, posts or even blog articles. It will be Wikipages. A visual editor for a wikipage is the crystallization of the semantic-content conflict as described eloquently by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WYSIWYM To date, despite a stream of donations and years of development, Wikimedia has failed to develop an editor that is…

I couldn’t agree more. We were in the process of building our intuitive wiki platform (https://www.wikiful.com) when Marijn first announced ProseMirror. Seeing what a powerful tool it was, we decided to make it the backbone of our WYSIWYG editor.

Our goal was to create an editor intuitive enough to be accessible to the tech-unsavvy, while also curing the ills (slowness, plugin overload) that frustrate our tech colleagues who use current enterprise wiki products.

You’ve clearly put a lot of thought into what makes a great editor — any comments you have on Wikiful's editor would be much appreciated.

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