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Exploiting the Wi-Fi Stack on Apple Devices

googleprojectzero.blogspot.com

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Re: Exploiting the Wi-Fi Stack on Apple Devices

#31

Post by forapurpose »

What is the story with Project Zero? What is the strategy here?

If you think about it, pointing out flaws in competitors' products is actually unusual for businesses, especially large ones. It raises questions of motives, of trust (are they drumming up business in a negative way? Can I trust what company X says about their chief rival? Are they exaggerating or spinning it?), and it looks unsavory: You don't win in the court of public opinion by insulting the competition, right or wrong; you just look like a jerk. Also, there's a liability risk, which adds legal costs to otherwise free blog posts - 'can't you guys just find Linux bugs?'.

On the other hand, it might improve security for everyone if Apple and Google started competing to publicize each other's flaws. :) (But I'd bet the noise of accusations and counter-accusations of errors in analysis, misleading statements, etc. would soon drown out the technical info, and then the lawsuits would begin ...).

Re: Exploiting the Wi-Fi Stack on Apple Devices

#32

Post by burnte »

forapurpose wrote: post #31

What is the story with Project Zero? What is the strategy here? If you think about it, pointing out flaws in competitors' products is actually unusual for businesses, especially large ones. It raises questions of motives, of trust (are they drumming up business in a negative way? Can I trust what company X says about their chief rival? Are they exaggerating or spinning it?), and it looks unsavory: You don't win in th…

QUalcomm and Linux aren't competetitors, and while MS and Apple are, the PZ blog has talked about them all. It's a very technical security blog.

Re: Exploiting the Wi-Fi Stack on Apple Devices

#33

Post by late2part »

forapurpose wrote: post #31

What is the story with Project Zero? What is the strategy here? If you think about it, pointing out flaws in competitors' products is actually unusual for businesses, especially large ones. It raises questions of motives, of trust (are they drumming up business in a negative way? Can I trust what company X says about their chief rival? Are they exaggerating or spinning it?), and it looks unsavory: You don't win in th…

I submit for your consideration that:

1. The Google Project Zero guys are idealists and motivated by increasing security.

2. Google security is taken far more seriously than most other companies

3. If Apple and Google competed in publicizing exploits, Google would win [is winning].

Re: Exploiting the Wi-Fi Stack on Apple Devices

#34

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

Cyph0n wrote: post #27
nardi wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would have taken you 10 seconds to Google and find out that iOS also has an icon in the status bar that shows you whether you’re on Wi-Fi or cellular.

Why thank you! I would truly be lost without your wisdom. Unfortunately, that still doesn't explain Apple's decision to make it harder to switch off WiFi. Do iPhone users simply not notice the status bar?

I'm not defending nor evangelising Apples current solution.

I'm lead to believe it's not iPhone users specifically, but people in general.

I've worked in IT, but qualified as a tradesmen nearly a decade before, and I occasionally forget to turn wifi back on when I get home. I currently work for a large steel fabrication company. One of the project managers here doesn't even use email.

It's way too easy for the average person to forget to turn wifi on and blow all your mobile data / get slogged with overage.

In a similar fashion, it's not hard to see and feel when a / the tyres on your car need a bit of air, but we mandate tyre pressure monitoring systems.

We are, for good or bad, reluctant to regulate software system. So, I guess, as always, if we think of a better design we should probably make a demo or promote it, maybe iOS / Android will pick it up along the way.

Re: Exploiting the Wi-Fi Stack on Apple Devices

#36

Post by Cyph0n »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #34
Cyph0n wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why thank you! I would truly be lost without your wisdom. Unfortunately, that still doesn't explain Apple's decision to make it harder to switch off WiFi. Do iPhone users simply not notice the status bar?

I'm not defending nor evangelising Apples current solution. I'm lead to believe it's not iPhone users specifically, but people in general. I've worked in IT, but qualified as a tradesmen nearly a decade before, and I occasionally forget to turn wifi back on when I get home. I currently work for a large steel fabrication company. One of the project managers here doesn't even use email . It's way too easy for the avera…

A better way would be to: (1) use either GPS or cell towers to specify some sort of geographical area (with user input of course), and then (2) allow the user to specify what happens to WiFi/3G when entering and/or exiting that area.

Llama on Android has been doing this for years, but the UX was a mess in my opinion. Apple could streamline the setup process, throw in some "amazing"s and "revolutionary"s, mix that with Touch/FaceID, and voila, you have a viable solution.

Re: Exploiting the Wi-Fi Stack on Apple Devices

#37

Post by Steko »

hdra wrote: post #24
mikeash wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problematic scenario goes like this: 1. You're in a coffee shop. The WiFi sucks today. You turn off WiFi so you can use your cellular connection instead. 2. Many hours later, you go home, having forgotten about #1. 3. You binge-watch the entirety of Doctor Who streaming on your phone, not realizing the phone is still using cellular. 4. Large bill from your provider.

I want to see the problem solved, but this feels like the wrong solution. Reminds me of the time where I couldn't trust what the UI says about the audio of my desktop computer running Linux circa 2005

The correct solution is "always turn on wi-fi when I get home". The phone knows when this happens, you can set reminders around it.

Re: Exploiting the Wi-Fi Stack on Apple Devices

#39

Post by planb »

Steko wrote: post #37
hdra wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to see the problem solved, but this feels like the wrong solution. Reminds me of the time where I couldn't trust what the UI says about the audio of my desktop computer running Linux circa 2005

The correct solution is "always turn on wi-fi when I get home". The phone knows when this happens, you can set reminders around it.

No, it does not if the Wifi Chipset is disabled, because it uses wifi for location services (GPS would use way too much battery). That's exactly the problem: The wifi chipset is used for much more than just connecting to the internet.
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