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Arabic characters found woven into burial costumes from Viking boat graves

bbc.com

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Re: Arabic characters found woven into burial costumes from Viking boat graves

#131

Post by whipoodle »

Yetanfou wrote: post #62

Placed in the perspective of the current political climate in Sweden I can not be but sceptic against research which tries to make islam part of Sweden's history. While the article is published by the BBC, the research - for what it is - was done in Uppsala. That Vikings travelled to islamic countries is known. That they traded with them - willingly or unwillingly - is also known. They did the same with many other cu…

> Placed in the perspective of the current political climate in Sweden I can not be but sceptic against research which tries to make islam part of Sweden's history.

Good grief.

Re: Arabic characters found woven into burial costumes from Viking boat graves

#132

Post by d--b »

_0w8t wrote: post #77
rusanu wrote: post #47

Swedish Vikings extended mostly toward what is now Russia and Ukraine, using Volga, Don and Dniepr as major communication/transport channels [0]. This brought them into contact with the Khazar Khanagate at the mouth of Volga [1] and the Volga Bulgars [2] (both muslim at the time). When Vladimir (half viking) had to choose a religion for his Kievan Rus, Islam was one of the choices [3] (rejected because it would forbi…

I remember reading that Vikings used ships rented in Khazar Khanagate to attack targets in Mediterranean as a form of disguise. They payed the rent with things they captured during the raids.

Thanks, I just googled this. Apparently it's Khaganate rather than Khanagate.

Re: Arabic characters found woven into burial costumes from Viking boat graves

#133

Post by chewz »

jpatokal wrote: post #95
smnrchrds wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Allah literally means God in Arabic. It is comprised of definite prefix 'Al' and the word for god 'Elah'. In English, to show the difference between generic god and specific God, the first letter is capitalized. Arabic does not have the same capitalization rule , so instead they call the specific deity 'Allah', literally meaning 'the god', or 'God'. This is important because not all Mulsims are Arab and not all Arabs…

They do. There was a bit of a flap a few years ago in Malaysia when they attempted to ban non-Muslims (in practice, Christians) from using the word "Allah". http://edition.cnn.com/2014/06/24/world/asia/malaysia-allah-...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/23/malaysia-highe...

Re: Arabic characters found woven into burial costumes from Viking boat graves

#134

Post by theprotocol »

jfaucett wrote: post #124
theprotocol wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I have also heard that Arabic-speaking Christians and Jews use the Allah to refer to God in their religions, but I have not fact-checked it. I can confirm this. We say "Allah." The advent of Islam into the global public awareness has created a lot of confusion about Middle Eastern cultures, e.g. I frequently hear "Allah is the name of the Muslims' God." But it is in fact a more generic word, exactly analogous to "Go…

> I can confirm this. We say "Allah." Is there any difference at all? I was under the impression that all abrahamic religions referenced the same "God". So when a Muslim, Jew, and Christian say "God" are they not all referring to the same deity?

There is no grammatical difference. @smnrchrds above is spot on in his explanation of the etymology. "Elah" is "god" with a lowercase g (as in, a god). "Al" means "the" in Arabic. "Allah" = "Al Elah" = "the god" = "God."

Now, whether the Abrahamic religions consider their God to be one and the same is a philosophical question. It depends on what "the same" means. Each of them claims to refer to the same entity, at least from a historical (or archaeological) point of view; but some followers of the different Abrahamic religions might object to each other's representations of God and deem them "not the same." A theological case can be made that they are ultimately distinct (I find it to be weak, but it's been argued). But, nominally, they are the same entity despite differences in characterization (and I believe this is the prevalent view).

Re: Arabic characters found woven into burial costumes from Viking boat graves

#135

Post by sangnoir »

mentallimits wrote: post #93
jpatokal wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While not perfect and generally on the "liberal" side of the spectrum, the BBC is remarkably apolitical by US standards and I very much doubt they have any (Viking) axes to grind when it comes to Swedish politics. Disclaimer: I used to work at a BBC company, although nowhere near the news department.

The BBC has a strong left wing bias. This doesn't come through so much in how they report mainstream political news but in the stories they choose to run on their website. A good example is the choice of stories for the "Society" section.

> The BBC has a strong left wing bias.

Only by American standards. Barack Obama (and his policies) would firmly be on the right in the UK. I think it only goes to show that US 'center' is to the right of the European 'center'.

Re: Arabic characters found woven into burial costumes from Viking boat graves

#136

Post by nvahalik »

jfaucett wrote: post #124
theprotocol wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I have also heard that Arabic-speaking Christians and Jews use the Allah to refer to God in their religions, but I have not fact-checked it. I can confirm this. We say "Allah." The advent of Islam into the global public awareness has created a lot of confusion about Middle Eastern cultures, e.g. I frequently hear "Allah is the name of the Muslims' God." But it is in fact a more generic word, exactly analogous to "Go…

> I can confirm this. We say "Allah." Is there any difference at all? I was under the impression that all abrahamic religions referenced the same "God". So when a Muslim, Jew, and Christian say "God" are they not all referring to the same deity?

Well both Christians and Muslims have "names for God" that extend beyond just the simple word "God".

Christians have described God in myriad ways[1] since the Old Testament times.

Muslims also have the "99 Names of Allah"[2].

I don't think Muslims have another name for Allah like the Christians/Jews do (i.e. "Yahweh" or "Jehovah", depending upon your pronunciation).

[1]: https://www.gotquestions.org/names-of-God.html

[2]: http://www.islamicity.org/5855/99-names-of-allah/

Re: Arabic characters found woven into burial costumes from Viking boat graves

#137

Post by gadders »

If you fancy a fun piece of fiction that covers Muslim/Viking interaction, Eaters of the Dead by Michael Crichton is a good read [1].

He blends a re-telling of the Beowulf story with the accounts of Ahmad ibn Fadlan [2] and his interactions with the Volga Vikings [3].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eaters_of_the_Dead

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_ibn_Fadlan

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangians

Re: Arabic characters found woven into burial costumes from Viking boat graves

#138

Post by jhanschoo »

rusanu wrote: post #47

Swedish Vikings extended mostly toward what is now Russia and Ukraine, using Volga, Don and Dniepr as major communication/transport channels [0]. This brought them into contact with the Khazar Khanagate at the mouth of Volga [1] and the Volga Bulgars [2] (both muslim at the time). When Vladimir (half viking) had to choose a religion for his Kievan Rus, Islam was one of the choices [3] (rejected because it would forbi…

This is an opportunity for me to link to one of my all-time favorite Vikings, alive contemporary as the dating of the finds. Harald Hardrada, whose journeys show just how mobile the Vikings might have been at that time period; if he had not contested the English throne at the same time as William contested it, history would surely have taken a greatly different course.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harald_Hardrada

Re: Arabic characters found woven into burial costumes from Viking boat graves

#139

Post by Geekette »

cerved wrote: post #86

Someone in r/Sweden who works in the field pointed out the severe lack of credibility of the researcher who published this finding so do your due diligence and check your sources before jumping to conclusions

"Someone in r/Sweden who works in the field pointed out the severe lack of credibility of the researcher who published this finding so do your due diligence and check your sources before jumping to conclusions"

As others have pointed out, the discovery reported in the post is quite reasonable, given the migratory, raiding and trade patterns between the Arab and Viking worlds in the era discussed. Settlers and converts (of tradition, religion, etc) are also common within intersections of 2 or more cultural groups interacting under any pretext. The post also outlines physical evidence, which has/will presumably be re-examined directly by other researchers to verify and extend lines of inquiry.

Some comments here like Rusanu's are annotated with useful links that you should probably read to understand how unusual the discovery actually is, instead of supporting baseless attacks on the source. It is mildly amazing to see the mental gymnastics being exhibited by some comments (including the ad hominem attack reflected in yours) in quest to refute a completely uncontroversial issue.

Re: Arabic characters found woven into burial costumes from Viking boat graves

#140

Post by Deestan »

Yetanfou wrote: post #62

Placed in the perspective of the current political climate in Sweden I can not be but sceptic against research which tries to make islam part of Sweden's history. While the article is published by the BBC, the research - for what it is - was done in Uppsala. That Vikings travelled to islamic countries is known. That they traded with them - willingly or unwillingly - is also known. They did the same with many other cu…

> if these Vikings wanted to show allegiance to allah and Ali

I call strawman.

Both article and researcher make no claims further than "cultural influence".

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