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Western news about China depends on intrepid Chinese ‘news assistants’

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Re: Western news about China depends on intrepid Chinese ‘news assistants’

#61

Post by dilemma »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #50
dilemma wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what you can't say in America - that the "democracy" is not so democratic.

> This is what you can't say in America Yes you can. You just did. It’s a stupid thing to say, in the same vein as likening the Civil Rights Movement to contemporaneous protests under Diem’s regime in Vietnam or the Cultural Revolution in China. But we have the First Amendment and courts to defend it. It’s not perfect, but it’s miles apart from a full security crackdown.

No, you can't say it because it is heresy and a social faux pas. Additionally, just see what happens when you actually stand up to the American political power - the fates of MLK and Malcolm X, and in more recent times Manning etc.

And on HN, you get massively downvoted so your post disappears.

Re: Western news about China depends on intrepid Chinese ‘news assistants’

#62

Post by dilemma »

kibwen wrote: post #29
Cyph0n wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They might take over the world (I think it's unlikely), but in my opinion, the main reason isn't their political system: it's human capital (1/7 of the world population) and homogeneity (very cohesive culture due to China's history). Western countries lack the former, India and others lack the latter.

I think you're vastly overestimating China's cultural homogeneity. 30% of the population (so, a greater number than the population of the U.S.) doesn't even speak Mandarin. Just like in India, regional loyalties are very strong despite modern attempts to unify; see the continuing efforts to wipe out Cantonese, a language with 60 million speakers in China and that is mutually unintelligible with Mandarin: http://www.b…

Shenzhen speaks Mandarin, not Cantonese. Cantonese is more common in Guangzhou but everyone there also speaks Mandarin. Mandarin is as much the first language of China as English is in the US.

Re: Western news about China depends on intrepid Chinese ‘news assistants’

#63

Post by dilemma »

kibwen wrote: post #33
est wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cantonese, a language with 60 million speakers in China Most of cantonese speakers can speak mandarin as well.

That doesn't refute my point; most French Canadians can also speak English, and yet French Canadian retains its own distinct subculture, so distinct that Quebec has repeatedly voted to secede from Canada. Language is merely one very obvious indicator of cultural heterogeneity, and the point remains that China is not nearly as culturally unified as the typical Westerner understands (which should not be so hard to beli…

Your point is completely refuted. You never had one since it was based on made up facts.

Re: Western news about China depends on intrepid Chinese ‘news assistants’

#64

Post by dilemma »

odiroot wrote: post #59
Cyph0n wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They might take over the world (I think it's unlikely), but in my opinion, the main reason isn't their political system: it's human capital (1/7 of the world population) and homogeneity (very cohesive culture due to China's history). Western countries lack the former, India and others lack the latter.

You shouldn't overstate the homogeneity. We're probably more homogeneous here in European Union. Granted, China is a log bigger. The biggest industrial centers (like Guangdong or even Shanghai) don't even use Mandarin on a daily basis. Yes, alas, the thing that makes this whole thing going is the central government.

All metropolitan areas use Mandarin mainly.

Re: Western news about China depends on intrepid Chinese ‘news assistants’

#65

Post by owebmaster »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #50
dilemma wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what you can't say in America - that the "democracy" is not so democratic.

> This is what you can't say in America Yes you can. You just did. It’s a stupid thing to say, in the same vein as likening the Civil Rights Movement to contemporaneous protests under Diem’s regime in Vietnam or the Cultural Revolution in China. But we have the First Amendment and courts to defend it. It’s not perfect, but it’s miles apart from a full security crackdown.

Downvotes (or name and shame) is censorship the same way or even worse than governmental censorship because it is socially accepted.

Re: Western news about China depends on intrepid Chinese ‘news assistants’

#66

Post by matt4077 »

vkou wrote: post #18
QAPereo wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Previously it was a sort of vaguely Maoist gerontocracy; power was concentrated in some central committees, not just the premier.

What difference does it make to the common people, or to political activists, that power is spread out among the leaders of dozen CCP committees, versus a single man? The police will continue to repress, the press committees will continue to censor...

There's a case to be made that a government by a large number of committees and other institutions tends to be more benevolent.

Many of the worst actions of repressive regimes have usually been motivated by emotions, not expediency. As more people get involved, the chance of any single personal obsession resulting in crass harm to, for example, a certain group of citizen is lowered.

Competition for power among people and/or these institutions also results in a sort of crude "checks and balances". There are too many people with considerable power that it becomes impossible for all of them to move billions to Switzerland, and if only a few do so, they risk being taken down by others who get jealous.

Of course, as China shows, this is still far below the standards set by real rule of law. But compare China with the half-bit dictators (Qaddafi, Barack Hussein) and it's hard to deny that it's not quite that bad.

Re: Western news about China depends on intrepid Chinese ‘news assistants’

#67

Post by matt4077 »

owebmaster wrote: post #65
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is what you can't say in America Yes you can. You just did. It’s a stupid thing to say, in the same vein as likening the Civil Rights Movement to contemporaneous protests under Diem’s regime in Vietnam or the Cultural Revolution in China. But we have the First Amendment and courts to defend it. It’s not perfect, but it’s miles apart from a full security crackdown.

Downvotes (or name and shame) is censorship the same way or even worse than governmental censorship because it is socially accepted.

Oh, in that case, I'm all for people getting thrown in jail instead of down-voted when they claim the US is run by a vast conspiracy no better than China.

And I won't accept it, even socially, I promise.

Re: Western news about China depends on intrepid Chinese ‘news assistants’

#68

Post by y4mi »

CoolGuySteve wrote: post #57
kibwen wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't refute my point; most French Canadians can also speak English, and yet French Canadian retains its own distinct subculture, so distinct that Quebec has repeatedly voted to secede from Canada. Language is merely one very obvious indicator of cultural heterogeneity, and the point remains that China is not nearly as culturally unified as the typical Westerner understands (which should not be so hard to beli…

> Quebec has repeatedly voted to secede from Canada. I believe your point may be refuted by the fact that you state outright lies like this whopper here.

seriously? it took me 1 second to google and confirm its truth. or is 1995 too long ago for kids these days?

also, refuting one argument does not shoot down unrelated arguments.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_referendum,_1995

Re: Western news about China depends on intrepid Chinese ‘news assistants’

#69

Post by kibwen »

dilemma wrote: post #63
kibwen wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't refute my point; most French Canadians can also speak English, and yet French Canadian retains its own distinct subculture, so distinct that Quebec has repeatedly voted to secede from Canada. Language is merely one very obvious indicator of cultural heterogeneity, and the point remains that China is not nearly as culturally unified as the typical Westerner understands (which should not be so hard to beli…

Your point is completely refuted. You never had one since it was based on made up facts.

Feel free to cite a source and enlighten me, then. :)

Re: Western news about China depends on intrepid Chinese ‘news assistants’

#70

Post by JumpCrisscross »

dilemma wrote: post #61
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is what you can't say in America Yes you can. You just did. It’s a stupid thing to say, in the same vein as likening the Civil Rights Movement to contemporaneous protests under Diem’s regime in Vietnam or the Cultural Revolution in China. But we have the First Amendment and courts to defend it. It’s not perfect, but it’s miles apart from a full security crackdown.

No, you can't say it because it is heresy and a social faux pas. Additionally, just see what happens when you actually stand up to the American political power - the fates of MLK and Malcolm X, and in more recent times Manning etc. And on HN, you get massively downvoted so your post disappears.

You’re equating downvotes with getting thrown in jail and exfiltraring conventional military secrets (video from a military aircraft, i.e. Manning) with expressing politically unpopular views in a public, civilian forum. Keep in mind, too, that we actually got civil rights laws passed and enforced, irrespective of what happened to MLK or Malcom X. That isn’t the case in repressive regimes.
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