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Much of the research around meditation and mindfulness has serious flaws

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Re: Much of the research around meditation and mindfulness has serious flaws

#41

Post by submeta »

There is no need for scientific proof. I observe that being mindful changes things for me: The way I listen to people, the way I eat, the way I handle rejection or anger or any other feeling. I realize that being mindful (vs mindlessly and blindly doing things) sharpens my senses, makes me think clearer, makes me change perspectives, create more categories or realize that I think within categories.

I got in touch with mindfulness by reading one of Jon Kabat-Zinn's books ("Wherever you go, there you are"). That was almost twenty years ago. Shortly after that I read Ellen Langer's book "Mindfulness", which is more about the negative effects of mindlessness.

I think that the pure process of observing something (mindfully) has the potential to positively influence the results. Whether I sit down quietly and observe my feelings and thoughts (things that happened in the past or things that'll happen in the future) as they come and go. Or as I interact with people, or as I walk, travel or engage in any type of activity.

I don't need scientific evidence that all of this has a measurable positive effect. My own observation is enough evidence for me.

Edit: typo

Re: Much of the research around meditation and mindfulness has serious flaws

#42

Post by vidarh »

Delmania wrote: post #31

Maybe we should have listened to the people who are Zen Buddhists about how reaching satori is incredibly difficult?

I don't think most people are expecting to get to that level, though. You can get benefits without getting that deep.

But the key is you can get benefits rather than have a guarantee that you will get very specific sets of benefits. It's not a wonder-cure for every mental problem around.

Re: Much of the research around meditation and mindfulness has serious flaws

#43

Post by viraptor »

grabcocque wrote: post #2

As somebody with clinical anxiety, I have been prescribed CBT and Mindfulness on the NHS, I think this piece misses several key points. For one thing, NICE (the UK NGO responsible for analysing evidence and making recommendations on the efficacy of treatments and their cost effectiveness) and an all-party Parliamentary group found signifcant evidence to recommend Mindfulness as a treatment for anxiety and mild depres…

> Mindfulness helped my anxiety a lot. I believe it to be more than placebo, but then I would, wouldn't I?

Even if it improved your quality of life just because you think it did, so what? A reliable way to placebo yourself with actual results would be amazing.

Re: Much of the research around meditation and mindfulness has serious flaws

#44

Post by vidarh »

Sandorie wrote: post #9

Between being a placebo and a straight up pseudoscience(if I even were to call it a “science”) in my opinion “mindfulness” is a type of pavlovian conditioning design to establish a self-empathy defense mechanism within our minds. I’ve been to “mindfulness events” for executives and corporate, where people claim to let go of their ego only to look down on anyone who is not as “open minded “ as they are. Overall is ano…

I'm trying, but I can't find a way to understand what you describe in terms of my experience with mindfulness practice.

Conditioning for what? Defense against what? It just seems entirely disconnected from my experience, which is "just" a combination of deep relaxation and a sensation of being more alert to (some) mental impulses rather than blindly following them (all the time). It is not a miracle cure for anything. It won't give you mental superpowers. But it offers a different way of looking at things that sometimes offers surprising insights.

I'm sure there are some incredibly poor events for executives and corporate, given the money you can potentially make, but that says very little about mindfulness and more about these types of events.

Re: Much of the research around meditation and mindfulness has serious flaws

#45

Post by owebmaster »

occultist_throw wrote: post #37

"Mindfulness" is an occult method. End of discussion. It can be, and has been studied not by science, but by people working with the occult. And mindfulness is more of a byproduct of meditation, controlled breathing, or other techniques that Shiva told Shakti. We'll eventually be able to analyse these things in the words of science. But not yet. If you're looking for proof, you will be looking for a very long time, u…

As we say in Brazil: "monkey that can't eat a banana will say it's unripe". Some people try medidation and succeed, some don't and think that the ones succeeding are faking it.

> And then, N=1 research usually isn't looked highly upon.

Genius!

Re: Much of the research around meditation and mindfulness has serious flaws

#47

Post by mercer »

lukev wrote: post #32

I normally wouldn't weigh in here, since I am the furthest thing possible from an expert, but after even a little dabbling in meditation I can see some major misconceptions in the other comments. It isn't about being bored, or about any of the benefits that may or may not occur. Meditation is a useful discipline because it is about training the mind to (a) become conscious of and "reify" individual thoughts and sensa…

In regards to (a), isn't it more about not reifying your thoughts and sensations? This might be semantics though; I do agree that the path of not becoming a slave to thoughts and sensations starts with acknowledging them.

Re: Much of the research around meditation and mindfulness has serious flaws

#48

Post by crusso »

js8 wrote: post #6

Few years ago, I read an article about mindfulness on HN, and it finally clicked with me, why some people recommended me to meditate, and I dismissed it because I was too skeptical. I have since understood it as training yourself to being bored, and through that, focus better on a single task that is boring but you have to do it. It probably isn't a cure for everything, but looked at this way, it is still quite usefu…

I like your description. It's similar to how I describe meditation to people who have no experience with it, although I usually say:

When you're focused on something interesting, you easily are able to follow the stream of your own consciousness. It feels like one solid river of focus. It's only when your mind is bored that your stream of consciousness unravels. It's that unraveling that we tend to avoid and disregard. We don't wish to carefully examine those moments between focus on interesting things. Meditation forces those unravelings and teaches us how to recognize them, observe them more clinically, and manage a higher (meta) level of control over them.

Re: Much of the research around meditation and mindfulness has serious flaws

#49

Post by mercer »

nkohari wrote: post #35
icebraining wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get how that quote relates to the parent post, can you clarify?

The quote refers to an idea in Zen Buddhism called shoshin , or "beginner's mind". The general idea is that the more you believe you are an expert on a subject, the more closed off you become to new ideas and ways you can improve. Instead, shoshin encourages you to approach all things with eagerness of a beginning. If you're interested, you should read Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, which is a short book collecting some…

I can second that recommendation. My brain prefers the more intellectual writings about zen, but I'm aware that this is somewhat counter to the whole point of zen. This book comes closest to getting me into the kind of mindset where I want to go and meditate. It's also just a really nice collection of 'sermons' to 'meditate' upon.

Re: Much of the research around meditation and mindfulness has serious flaws

#50

Post by lukev »

mercer wrote: post #47
lukev wrote: post #32

I normally wouldn't weigh in here, since I am the furthest thing possible from an expert, but after even a little dabbling in meditation I can see some major misconceptions in the other comments. It isn't about being bored, or about any of the benefits that may or may not occur. Meditation is a useful discipline because it is about training the mind to (a) become conscious of and "reify" individual thoughts and sensa…

In regards to (a), isn't it more about not reifying your thoughts and sensations? This might be semantics though; I do agree that the path of not becoming a slave to thoughts and sensations starts with acknowledging them.

Yes, I meant acknowledging thoughts as "things" which you can observe, pay attention to or ignore as you will.
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