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Much of the research around meditation and mindfulness has serious flaws

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Re: Much of the research around meditation and mindfulness has serious flaws

#11

Post by HyperMassive »

js8 wrote: post #6

Few years ago, I read an article about mindfulness on HN, and it finally clicked with me, why some people recommended me to meditate, and I dismissed it because I was too skeptical. I have since understood it as training yourself to being bored, and through that, focus better on a single task that is boring but you have to do it. It probably isn't a cure for everything, but looked at this way, it is still quite usefu…

The headline is very polarised and sensationalist.

Now that you pointed it out, I agree with you it primarily helps me with managing my boredom (and the frustration it causes). Although I have no measurables to quantify its impact, I've felt some benefits to 'mindfulness meditation'. Just because it's not a cure-all doesn't mean it has no merit.

Re: Much of the research around meditation and mindfulness has serious flaws

#12

Post by rippeltippel »

mettamage wrote: post #5
grabcocque wrote: post #2

As somebody with clinical anxiety, I have been prescribed CBT and Mindfulness on the NHS, I think this piece misses several key points. For one thing, NICE (the UK NGO responsible for analysing evidence and making recommendations on the efficacy of treatments and their cost effectiveness) and an all-party Parliamentary group found signifcant evidence to recommend Mindfulness as a treatment for anxiety and mild depres…

> Secondly, mindfulness feels, to me, like an offshoot of CBT. It appears to be very closely related to CBT in both its approach and what it helps control. Really? When I meditate I need to turn my thoughts off . With CBT you reframe your thoughts by a process of what I'd like to call creative thinking and empiricism. So for me, it's not an offshoot of CBT, since mindfulness is not concerned with thoughts but with be…

> When I meditate I need to turn my thoughts off

Good luck with that! From my experience and the teachings I received, meditation is not about turning thoughts off (which is practically impossible) but becoming aware of them in a way that you don't get lost into them, the goal being to understand hands-on how the mind works.

> Mindfulness was "Buddha's" invention on top of Hinduism

That's completely wrong AFAICT, although I concede that the term "mindfulness" can be perceived as a lay version of "meditation", without religious or philosophical connotation.

Re: Much of the research around meditation and mindfulness has serious flaws

#13

Post by DanBC »

grabcocque wrote: post #2

As somebody with clinical anxiety, I have been prescribed CBT and Mindfulness on the NHS, I think this piece misses several key points. For one thing, NICE (the UK NGO responsible for analysing evidence and making recommendations on the efficacy of treatments and their cost effectiveness) and an all-party Parliamentary group found signifcant evidence to recommend Mindfulness as a treatment for anxiety and mild depres…

I agree. But one of the problems NICE finds is the variable quality of what "mindfulness" actually is. Can an app deliver mindfulness? Can an MP3? Can it be self-delivered? Is there a difference between group work and solo work? If a mental health professional gives a patient a link to HeadSpace has that MH professional delivered a mindfulness treatment?

And NICE are sometimes giving DO NOT recommendations for mindfulness, eg here:

https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg159/chapter/1-Recommendat...

> Do not routinely offer mindfulness-based interventions[3] or supportive therapy to treat social anxiety disorder.

The supporting evidence for that is here: https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg159/evidence/full-guideli...

Re: Much of the research around meditation and mindfulness has serious flaws

#14

Post by brango »

js8 wrote: post #6

Few years ago, I read an article about mindfulness on HN, and it finally clicked with me, why some people recommended me to meditate, and I dismissed it because I was too skeptical. I have since understood it as training yourself to being bored, and through that, focus better on a single task that is boring but you have to do it. It probably isn't a cure for everything, but looked at this way, it is still quite usefu…

Meditation has massive potential for very real, profound experiences. There is much that science doesn't understand about our bodies yet but that has been empirically discovered over the millenia.

Meditation can certainly be boring, but it's not necessarily training yourself to be bored. There are many different facets depending on the style of meditation you practice:

* Zen might get you enquire into yourself why you're getting bored, why you always need to feel some high, and ultimately, who am I? This may then lead you to realise that you are not your personality. Then you may find your consciousness shifts a little to something more fundamental, where you can see your thoughts just as thoughts and not "you". That fundamental state (called by some 'no mind') is blissful, serene, calm. It's a truly wonderful state of being and I'm fortunate to have had a good glimpse.

* Alternatively, Buddhists may teach you to just observe your experiences, not getting caught up in them, leading to the above experiences too.

* Taoists and certain yogic schools might suggest you sit there circulating your energy around, so you're certainly not 'doing nothing'. This can lead to some states that are nothing less than ecstatic.

The most effective form of meditation I've done (in ~15 years) combines both - energy movement followed by meditation. It seems ultimately that most paths converge on these two aspects, it's just a question of efficiency.

The results are incredible. I feel confident they will shift my baseline level of happiness up.

As a specific example, this week I experienced that there is a point located above the soft palette in the mouth, that when touched by the tip of the tongue (under certain conditions) results in a feeling close to orgasm. I was literally laughing when I discovered this. It's an incredible, ecstatic feeling.

For anyone who wants to know more, check out the free lessons at https://www.aypsite.org which are the clearest and most complete I've ever found. The specific practice above is called Khechari Mudra. Don't take my word for it, or the word of the guy who wrote those lessons. There's only one way you'll ever convince yourself about this stuff... practice for yourself :-)

Good luck!

Re: Much of the research around meditation and mindfulness has serious flaws

#15

Post by microtonal »

Sandorie wrote: post #9

Between being a placebo and a straight up pseudoscience(if I even were to call it a “science”) in my opinion “mindfulness” is a type of pavlovian conditioning design to establish a self-empathy defense mechanism within our minds. I’ve been to “mindfulness events” for executives and corporate, where people claim to let go of their ego only to look down on anyone who is not as “open minded “ as they are. Overall is ano…

I’ve been to “mindfulness events” for executives and corporate, where people claim to let go of their ego only to look down on anyone who is not as “open minded “ as they are.

"In the beginner’s mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert’s there are few."

--- Shunryu Suzuki

Re: Much of the research around meditation and mindfulness has serious flaws

#16

Post by vidarh »

rippeltippel wrote: post #12
mettamage wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Secondly, mindfulness feels, to me, like an offshoot of CBT. It appears to be very closely related to CBT in both its approach and what it helps control. Really? When I meditate I need to turn my thoughts off . With CBT you reframe your thoughts by a process of what I'd like to call creative thinking and empiricism. So for me, it's not an offshoot of CBT, since mindfulness is not concerned with thoughts but with be…

> When I meditate I need to turn my thoughts off Good luck with that! From my experience and the teachings I received, meditation is not about turning thoughts off (which is practically impossible) but becoming aware of them in a way that you don't get lost into them, the goal being to understand hands-on how the mind works. > Mindfulness was "Buddha's" invention on top of Hinduism That's completely wrong AFAICT, alt…

Mindfulness meditation indeed is not about turning thoughts off.

Concentration meditation on the other hand can involve turning thoughts off. Mindfulness meditation involve a certain degree of concentration practice (e.g. the use of breath meditation - anapanasati) to maintain focus, but too much concentration is directly detrimental to mindfulness meditation.

Re: Much of the research around meditation and mindfulness has serious flaws

#17

Post by girzel »

grabcocque wrote: post #2

As somebody with clinical anxiety, I have been prescribed CBT and Mindfulness on the NHS, I think this piece misses several key points. For one thing, NICE (the UK NGO responsible for analysing evidence and making recommendations on the efficacy of treatments and their cost effectiveness) and an all-party Parliamentary group found signifcant evidence to recommend Mindfulness as a treatment for anxiety and mild depres…

> (Disclosure: Mindfulness helped my anxiety a lot. I believe it to be more than placebo, but then I would, wouldn't I?)

I don't see why this would need to be dismissed as a placebo. A placebo is something that works by tricking the mind into have an effect on the body, right? The key being that there really is an effect. So couldn't mindfulness be seen as purposefully harnessing the placebo effect?

Re: Much of the research around meditation and mindfulness has serious flaws

#18

Post by codeulike »

js8 wrote: post #6

Few years ago, I read an article about mindfulness on HN, and it finally clicked with me, why some people recommended me to meditate, and I dismissed it because I was too skeptical. I have since understood it as training yourself to being bored, and through that, focus better on a single task that is boring but you have to do it. It probably isn't a cure for everything, but looked at this way, it is still quite usefu…

> I have since understood it as training yourself to being bored, and through that, focus better on a single task that is boring but you have to do it.

I've been meditating for years (on and off, not much at the moment) and what you've come up with there is actually a very useful description of at least some of its aspects.

Re: Much of the research around meditation and mindfulness has serious flaws

#19

Post by icebraining »

microtonal wrote: post #15
Sandorie wrote: post #9

Between being a placebo and a straight up pseudoscience(if I even were to call it a “science”) in my opinion “mindfulness” is a type of pavlovian conditioning design to establish a self-empathy defense mechanism within our minds. I’ve been to “mindfulness events” for executives and corporate, where people claim to let go of their ego only to look down on anyone who is not as “open minded “ as they are. Overall is ano…

I’ve been to “mindfulness events” for executives and corporate, where people claim to let go of their ego only to look down on anyone who is not as “open minded “ as they are. "In the beginner’s mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert’s there are few." --- Shunryu Suzuki

I don't get how that quote relates to the parent post, can you clarify?
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