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Arabic characters found woven into burial costumes from Viking boat graves

bbc.com

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Re: Arabic characters found woven into burial costumes from Viking boat graves

#61

Post by int_19h »

lucaspiller wrote: post #39
earksiinni wrote: post #13

Sceptical that this means that there were Muslim Vikings. Arabic script was commonly used throughout medieval Iberia as decoration, often without any meaningful words, just Arabic letters strung together for aesthetic effect. Wouldn’t surprise me if something similar was going on here, where Iranian weavers were simply mass producing cloth for export with Ali and Allah embroidered as decoration. Keep in mind that Vik…

Here in Lithuania (well the empire, so Poland and Belarus too) there were a large number of Muslim settlers who arrived in the 14th century. They were known for their military strength and were invited by Vytautas to aid in the efforts against the Christian Crusaders. If military prowess was as highly regarded as we believe to the Vikings, I wouldn’t be surprised if they did something similar too.

It's entirely possible that there were converts, as well. Many European cultures pre-Christianization had pretty broad-minded attitudes towards religion, and while the majority would adhere to the predominant pagan tradition, some individuals and families would sometimes convert to another religion when exposed to it. Especially given the rather pragmatic attitude towards religious worship among pagans at the time, choosing to honor and worship a god perceived as "stronger" for whatever reason would not be inconceivable - and the impressive early military successes of the Caliphate would be seen as testament to the strength of the god proclaimed on its banners...

While we're at it, one of the founding myths about Christianization of Kievan Rus involves knyaz Vladimir holding a council on which faith to convert to, and inviting preachers to compete - supposedly, Latin and Greek rites of Christianity, Islam (via Volga Bulgars), and Judaism (via Khazars) were all on the table. According to the legend, Islam was rejected first, solely on account of banning alcohol. Judaism was reviewed and rejected next, because the loss of Jerusalem and destruction of the Temple was seen as a clear sign of divine weakness by the pagan Rus. Finally, between the Greek and the Latin rites of Christianity, they picked Greek, because Greek churches and priests were decorated much more lavishly (with lots of prominently displayed gold etc), while Latin ones were more subdued.

While it's almost certainly a legend that does not correspond to an actual event, its very premise speaks volumes about how religion was viewed in that time period.

Re: Arabic characters found woven into burial costumes from Viking boat graves

#62

Post by Yetanfou »

Placed in the perspective of the current political climate in Sweden I can not be but sceptic against research which tries to make islam part of Sweden's history. While the article is published by the BBC, the research - for what it is - was done in Uppsala.

That Vikings travelled to islamic countries is known. That they traded with them - willingly or unwillingly - is also known. They did the same with many other cultures and brought materials back to Scandinavia. There have been finds of Buddhist statues, swastikas, Christian ornaments from the time when the Vikings were still going the way of Odin and Thor, etc. There is, however, no research showing the Vikings were making Buddhism part of their culture even though they used some of their symbology (swastikas come to mind). Why not? Because there is no political drive to give Buddhism a part in Sweden's history while there is a strong drive to do this to islam, especially in parts of academia.

Also, if these Vikings wanted to show allegiance to allah and Ali, why did they do so in mirror image?

This belongs to the realm of Beatles covers showing mirror images of Paul McCartney being dead, backward satanic messages on rock albums and chemtrails: the conclusion was the starting point, all that was left was a search for 'evidence'.

Re: Arabic characters found woven into burial costumes from Viking boat graves

#63

Post by int_19h »

hourislate wrote: post #22
megaman22 wrote: post #5

Norse were trading and raiding all over the rivers of eastern Europe, down into the Black Sea, and likewise along the Atlantic seaboard into the Mediterranean. It would be profoundly weird if some items of Islamic provenance did not make their way into grave goods and hoards in Scandinavia.

Almost every King Kyiv/ Kyiv Rus was a Viking. The last Viking King of Norway was also the last King of Kyiv from what I understand. They fought with the Turks for 100's of years. It wouldn't surprise me if this clothing was not just something they came across on a raid or purchased.

Svyatoslav Igorevich (Sveinald Ingvarsson) was arguably the last ruler of Rus who was a pure-blooded Varangian (Viking), and mostly adhered to their customs - but, notably, he already used the Slavic form of his name predominantly, not the Norse one. His wives appear to have been Slavic, and his firstborn son had a Slavic name.

One of the other sons, Vladimir (Valdamarr), was still a Viking enough to go seek - and get! - the help of his Viking relatives in Scandinavia to overthrow his brothers. But after converting himself and the country to Eastern Christianity, arguably, he finally severed that link. His successors were definitely not Vikings in any sense, although they did marry their daughters into Scandinavian royalty, among others.

Re: Arabic characters found woven into burial costumes from Viking boat graves

#65

Post by akavel »

fludlight wrote: post #53
PakG1 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a funny modern example, check out Kenyon Martin, former NBA all-star, having Chinese character tattoos. I never really thought about this until social media apparently all told him to back off when he said current Brooklyn Nets point guard Jeremy Lin shouldn't have dreadlocks in his hair because that was a black culture thing, and then Lin (politely) pointed out that Martin had Chinese character tattoos. I imagine…

There is also the Western predilection for Chinese character tattoos which don't always mean what the customer thinks they mean and, of course, the Chinese predilection for English tattoos that...

http://hanzismatter.blogspot.com

- a blog "dedicated to the misuse of chinese characters in western culture". Highly recommended for disillusionment and entertainment value! :)

Re: Arabic characters found woven into burial costumes from Viking boat graves

#66

Post by rflrob »

vowelless wrote: post #60
smnrchrds wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Allah literally means God in Arabic. It is comprised of definite prefix 'Al' and the word for god 'Elah'. In English, to show the difference between generic god and specific God, the first letter is capitalized. Arabic does not have the same capitalization rule , so instead they call the specific deity 'Allah', literally meaning 'the god', or 'God'. This is important because not all Mulsims are Arab and not all Arabs…

The parent likely means "La ilaha illallah". So the point it not about "Allah" (indeed many cultures use that word for God -- it is derived from the semetic El). The point is instead about an inscription of the Shahada on the cloth of the Patriach of Russia. This would be akin to the US President wearing a garment with something along the lines of "God save the Queen" in Latin (assuming the President didn't understan…

On the other hand (debates about the unity of the trinity aside), Christians believe in a single God as well (and that God is understood by Muslims to be Allah). So while the shahada is strongly associated with Islam, I doubt it would particularly conflict with Orthodox Christian teachings (IANA religious scholar). So perhaps the better analogy would be the US president wearing "A Mari Usque Ad Mare", the Canadian motto, which means "From Sea to Sea".

Re: Arabic characters found woven into burial costumes from Viking boat graves

#68

Post by KON_Air »

Yetanfou wrote: post #62

Placed in the perspective of the current political climate in Sweden I can not be but sceptic against research which tries to make islam part of Sweden's history. While the article is published by the BBC, the research - for what it is - was done in Uppsala. That Vikings travelled to islamic countries is known. That they traded with them - willingly or unwillingly - is also known. They did the same with many other cu…

To be honest "Allah on mirror" sounds like "Jesus on toast".

Re: Arabic characters found woven into burial costumes from Viking boat graves

#69

Post by eponeponepon »

Yetanfou wrote: post #62

Placed in the perspective of the current political climate in Sweden I can not be but sceptic against research which tries to make islam part of Sweden's history. While the article is published by the BBC, the research - for what it is - was done in Uppsala. That Vikings travelled to islamic countries is known. That they traded with them - willingly or unwillingly - is also known. They did the same with many other cu…

Why are you so swift to cast this as political? All this suggests - at most- is that individuals might have decided they wanted to be muslims, or more likely just liked the iconography. Whichever way you slice it, islam is a part, however small, of Sweden's history, on account of its symbolism being found on Swedish historical artifacts.

Re: Arabic characters found woven into burial costumes from Viking boat graves

#70

Post by jlebrech »

eponeponepon wrote: post #69
Yetanfou wrote: post #62

Placed in the perspective of the current political climate in Sweden I can not be but sceptic against research which tries to make islam part of Sweden's history. While the article is published by the BBC, the research - for what it is - was done in Uppsala. That Vikings travelled to islamic countries is known. That they traded with them - willingly or unwillingly - is also known. They did the same with many other cu…

Why are you so swift to cast this as political? All this suggests - at most- is that individuals might have decided they wanted to be muslims, or more likely just liked the iconography. Whichever way you slice it, islam is a part, however small, of Sweden's history, on account of its symbolism being found on Swedish historical artifacts.

it's by the BBC
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