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Symantec CEO says source code reviews by foreign states pose unacceptable risk

reuters.com

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Re: Symantec CEO says source code reviews by foreign states pose unacceptable risk

#91
I think there are two points to consider:

1) From a security point of view, put yourself in the shoes of the other states. The NSA and its friends have a well proven history of backdoors and state-sponsored malware. From the Stuxnet/Flame family to the backdoors that were found on the hard-drivers malware (Story was on HN recently, I'll try to find it). So it is very normal, and as a matter of fact I'd say it's abnormal for a government to take a security product that holds administrative rights on the computer, without first inspecting its code to verify for backdoors. There is no such thing as a better state. I read on the comments "politically charged states". Well from the point of view of a Russian, the US is a politically charged state. Keep it relative ladies and gentelmen.

2) I've read people complaining about how "the way they scan"/"the way they do the detection" will be compromised. The way the AV software works IN GENERAL doesn't differ from one another. From a binary of the software one can identify with "relative ease" (for threat actors who are sponsored by governments), when the unpacking happens, decompression happens, sandboxing, hashing blocks, etc. As for the parts that are unique to the AV, for example watchdog parts and heuristics, these can also be reverse-engineered or just obteined through classical spying etc.

So all in all, source code reviews are, in my opinion, a very necessary thing. Because frankly if a simple source code review is going to fundamentally break your AV software, there has to be something wrong with that product. Because setting aside the government looking at the source code, hundreds of devs have already looked at it.

Re: Symantec CEO says source code reviews by foreign states pose unacceptable risk

#92
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's no guarantee that the source code you are looking at matches the binaries that are being distributed isn't it? Couldn't one compile from source and then compare blobs?

I wonder how many commercial code bases/products can do that. Certainly an interesting proposal for verification purposes like this, but e.g. the recent Debian efforts show that it is not trivial.

> the recent Debian efforts show that it is not trivial

Is there a link on this you recommend?

Re: Symantec CEO says source code reviews by foreign states pose unacceptable risk

#93
post #7

Yeah, sure. Thats the company which according to Google (March) has a huge mess in own nest of Certification Authority resulting in google chrome removing their certs: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/03/googl...

Yup. The tire fire of the security industry is saying that letting other people look at the code is a security risk. Personally, I think maybe they got scared that someone might figure out that their code is worse than everything else on the planet, and so they want to try to put the clothes back onto the Emperor.

Not sure that applies in this case. If the only party you allow to look at your code is one that's heavily invested in secretly hacking it, then you're probably going to give them some zero-days which they'll use maliciously. It's different if you let everyone look at it, since a white-hat might find something helpful. But this isn't a choice between everyone and no-one, it's between a known black-hat and no-one.

Re: Symantec CEO says source code reviews by foreign states pose unacceptable risk

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the parent is talking about vulnerabilities, but the fact that if you know how the antivirus engine works it may be easier to write a virus able to avoid detection.

Sounds like a vulnerability. Isn't that how the argument went about source code? "If you know how the program works it may be easier to write an exploit." But then experience taught people that exposing source code to the bright sunlight by opening its source could actually make software more secure through many eyes finding holes. Why is this not applicable to virus detection algorithms?

because its not that easy. if i write some part of the code to detect if you are a good human and will you go to hell or heaven, to evaluate that for me would be hard. and if you had a access to my source code you could check what i am looking for and could maybe cheat.

the vulnerability i would call is if i sent you to hell and you found a way to escape.

Re: Symantec CEO says source code reviews by foreign states pose unacceptable risk

#95

So they're basically admitting that their antivirus tools aren't secure enough to handle a basic code review? Yup, totally makes me want to buy copies. "No, guys, security by obscurity totally works in this one case! Because it's us! Come on, you trust us right?"

To play devil's advocate, they may not be worried about vulnerabilities in their code but rather vulnerabilities in their method of virus detection, the same way Google doesn't share details about their search algorithm partly so it isn't gamed by spammers. Actually this is common in software that is meant to protect against sophisticated attackers. Blizzard and Valve used to have periodic mass bans but they would ne…

> To play devil's advocate, they may not be worried about vulnerabilities in their code but rather vulnerabilities in their method of virus detection

This is an argument for factoring out the means of virus detection into a closed-source plugin/module, while opening the source of the rest of the code. Particularly since detection is presumably pure (i.e. functional programming notions of purity and referential transparency), and thus much less likely to be a source of vulnerabilities, compared to the rest of the client which actually interacts with the OS, disks/files, etc. and is therefore much more likely to be exploited. Because the vulnerability scanner would still be a closed-source binary blob, the public would need to trust the company that the blob is actually pure, but seeing that blob within the context of an open-source client which is handling I/O makes that trust easier.

Yes, it makes it easier for malware creators to test their creations against the closed-source module before releasing their malware into the wild. But sophisticated malware writers are already doing that, by installing the anti-virus client into a VM, updating it, disconnecting it from networks, then loading the malware into the VM and seeing if the malware is detected or not. So malware writers don't gain that much from the opening of the rest of the codebase (unless they succeed in finding vulnerabilities that the rest of the world doesn't), and the white-hat public gains a much more trustworthy security tool.

Re: Symantec CEO says source code reviews by foreign states pose unacceptable risk

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it comparable to commercial AV solutions? Can it intercept network traffic, run executables in a sandbox, use heuristics for detecting new viruses?

ClamAV's detection ability is really a joke.

Its 94% as good as the best AV, so not too bad.

Re: Symantec CEO says source code reviews by foreign states pose unacceptable risk

#97
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To play devil's advocate, they may not be worried about vulnerabilities in their code but rather vulnerabilities in their method of virus detection, the same way Google doesn't share details about their search algorithm partly so it isn't gamed by spammers. Actually this is common in software that is meant to protect against sophisticated attackers. Blizzard and Valve used to have periodic mass bans but they would ne…

I can second that. A lot of virus detection basically boils down to detecting this particular substring. Which is usually quite easily bypassed.

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Re: Symantec CEO says source code reviews by foreign states pose unacceptable risk

#98
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would make more sence to make the code open source but not free - anyone can see but nobody can use the code.

And how would you enforce that? What would prevent anyone with access to the code from building it and using it? I don't see any way except maybe stripping the code of significant parts

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Re: Symantec CEO says source code reviews by foreign states pose unacceptable risk

#99
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how many commercial code bases/products can do that. Certainly an interesting proposal for verification purposes like this, but e.g. the recent Debian efforts show that it is not trivial.

> the recent Debian efforts show that it is not trivial Is there a link on this you recommend?

https://wiki.debian.org/ReproducibleBuilds
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