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The Depression Thing

zachholman.com

251–260 of 348 posts

Re: The Depression Thing

#251
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dude, screw you. Seriously. The biggest screw up we all make about mental health is the assumption that the thing that works for one person is the thing that works for another. I would have hoped that someone who has been through treatment would understand that, but here you are spouting the "get your life in order and it'll all be dandy, it worked for me!" crap that's so unhelpful in the first place to people with m…

> "get your life in order and it'll all be dandy, it worked for me!" No it won’t all be dandy. But it helps. Or at least it’s what I’ve seen help the most people I know who are or have been depressed. At the end of the day, the main thing to do is to not give in to depression. That thing wants you to sit on the couch and feel sorry for yourself. That’s like one of the main symptoms. Fighting that urge helps make it g…

My perspective is that your approach here, talking about depression as an external influence that is not you - just an oppressive influence on you that must be fought off - was actively harmful for improving my mental state.

The day I stopped viewing myself as an ideality rather than reality, the day I realized everything I thought, felt, believed, and did was me and absolutely none of it wasn't, was the day I found an ability to change instead of deny.

Also, I'd say it is very easy to approach this with a defeatist attitude (consciously or unconsciously) if you have a belief that you are sick. Only time can fix a broken bone, so if your mind is broken, can you really change it - is it a futile effort to try?

Don't listen to a nut on the internet, though.

Re: The Depression Thing

#252

Throwaway for reasons that will become obvious. Imagine that you met a friend you hadn't seen in years. They seemed really down, and you ask what's up. They say, "My job is to collect tolls in a tollbooth in Alaska. For 9 months a year it's freezing, and the heater breaks every day, and I'm stuck outside wrenching on the thing with one hand while Googling "how to fix a heater" on my phone with the other while I slowl…

I fully believe that there is no treatment or regimen on the planet that can ease the burden of some people suffering from severe depression. But the thing is, there are levels of severity to mental illness and depression. And exercise, diet, proper sleep, mindfulness, CBT - all these things have shown to help many depressed people.

Will it help all depressed people? Of course not. But by saying be careful what advice we give because it might not apply to you is not a strong enough argument to stop giving this advice. There are undoubtedly people out there that think depressed people should just "get it together" and that way of thinking is not a constructive way to approach this at all. But it is also not constructive for people who are tyring to help (and whose job it is to help) be forced to parse every word they say, scared of recommending something that could help, just because it might hurt feelings. There is a fine line here, of being sensitive and being helpful, and I understand your point and how it can be tiring to listen to people who think they have all the answers to a problem you have suffered from all your life. I have also hung out on r/depression long enough to know there are people who could be helped but have convinced themselves (and others have convinced them) that they are unhelpable because they are depressed and that's that. That is not a healthy mindset, even if that is the case.

Re: The Depression Thing

#253
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But fuck it, that shit works for you -- you have no idea whether it'll work for anyone else. Since depression is a potentially fatal illness, and you appear not to have any training in psychiatry, psychology, psychotherapy, medicine, pharmacology, you should maybe recognise your limits. > Changing your lifestyle to treat depression works Only for some people. you have no idea how many people it does work for, and y…

The medical community calls what you're doing "terminal uniqueness" and I've noticed that this is very prevalent with people who suffer from depression: "Those therapies won't work on me, I am different, I need a special treatment". Sleep, eat well, keep active. Nothing about that advice is dangerous. But it is hard to do if you aren't in the habit of doing it. (I know what you're going to say next, "but chemicals in…

I wouldn't bring up chemicals in the brain, because that is a nonsense marketing term.

https://chriskresser.com/the-chemical-imbalance-myth/ http://www.brown.uk.com/diagnosis/france.pdf

You can't claim that sleeping, eating, and exercising are "fixing" chemicals in the bain any more than people can claim chemical imbalance causes mental illness. There is no baseline for what normal chemical levels are.

Re: The Depression Thing

#254

I was diagnosed with "major depression" when I was 14, did the medication and therapy thing for a bit but the medication made me a zombie. Therapy helped me learn to cope a little better, but I was never "cured" of my depression. My 20s have been pretty bad, but in the last year and a half I've lost 100+lbs and have been running and lifting. It turns out the common sense advice to depression was really what I needed…

I can't support this enough. I'd add laying off alcohol. I haven't been diagnosed with depression but I can get in a serious funk if I haven't been exercising, sleeping enough, eating right, or if I've been drinking too much. Again this isn't a one size fits all cure for depression but it's worth a shot.

I always wished I was one of those people who loved working out. Some folks comment on how miserable they feel if they don't work out for a few days. I feel AWESOME if I get that much time free to relax and just enjoy myself and not feel obligated to work out :)

I bike commute and also work out before work every day, but I can't say it has a particularly large effect on my mood.

My darkest days were long before I drank; then again, adolescence is a particularly hard time anyway.

Re: The Depression Thing

#255
It's anecdotal, but I've found my cure for depression: it's called Stoicism. I hear it's been useful to people for a couple thousand years, and is pretty much 'confirmed' by modern cognitive psychology.

I experienced depression on and off for about 20 years, between 12ish and 34 (2016). Then shit really hit the fan, the perfect storm so to speak, and I was shattered to the core of my being and my values. Honestly it felt as though dying would pretty much be a non-event (although I'm not suicidal so it wasn't really an option, but survival instincts kicked in at some point and were all that prompted me to feed once in a while each week for a couple months; it took half a year before I even wanted to get better, to cope).

Then I read "The Obstacle Is The Way" by Ryan Holiday. This book pretty much changed my life. I guess it came at just the right time.

I underwent a sort of 'quantum change' as some psychologists call it: a profound, meaningful, lasting and massive change of my core personality and values, even thought processes and emotional responses. I am me, I mean I do recognize myself and so do my friends and family, but I am also a truly different being, it's like my biology has changed and my mind with it, or the other way around, idk. People confirm that I do look different, in the eyes, in what they feel around me. I certainly feel like my old self was flawed beyond salvation and has died on a psychological level. I feel like I salvaged as little as possible and proceeded on reinventing myself. It is still an ongoing process, although slowly stabilizing (it will be a year in December).

Overall I am now able to create from scratch all the joy and motivation I always longed for, to accept reality easily in ways that keep surprising me, and to remain positive (or neutral) in most circumstances. Nothing's perfect and that's good to me. I still have habits to master (dwelling on past circumstances that provoked this major episode last year), but it's night and day with what I used to be.

Considering what I went through before this change, and during it, I consider myself lucky, even blessed on some level (atheist here, with some scientific awe for existence and the cosmos).

Feel free to ask for more details and suggestions, I'd be happy to oblige, otherwise you know the book. Best of hope to everyone.

Re: The Depression Thing

#256

People: PLEASE STOP recommending depressed people to take psychedelics. There is no such thing as "psychedelic therapy." Psychedelics can easily make people with mental health issues MUCH WORSE. Nobody needs a full blown existential crisis on top of major depression. I get it if you like the idea of doing psychedelics, but they are mind-altering in significant and poorly understood ways, and can easily cause others h…

You can say the same thing about anti-depressants too, especially the part about it making thing MUCH WORSE. I lost a decade of my life before I realized they were just numbing me to my situation and allowing me to not deal with it. There is no right answer when it comes to depression and almost everything that works for someone will be counterproductive for someone else. Having been through it, the absolute wrong approach is to play it safe and be sure that you don't make it worse. We only have one life and I can't imagine anything worse then going through 80 years depressed. Better to risk making it worse, IMHO.

Re: The Depression Thing

#257
post #37

I was diagnosed with "major depression" when I was 14, did the medication and therapy thing for a bit but the medication made me a zombie. Therapy helped me learn to cope a little better, but I was never "cured" of my depression. My 20s have been pretty bad, but in the last year and a half I've lost 100+lbs and have been running and lifting. It turns out the common sense advice to depression was really what I needed…

People who can just sleep, diet and exercise and the depression simply goes away, that's not real major depression. I really hate how people spread this stuff so condescendingly. No, it might have worked for you, but it does not work for millions of people who suffer from it.

I'm not willing to categorically say those people were not suffering from major depression (who am I to judge), but it strikes me as the kind of fix that's not commonly going to help major depression, and to see it almost universally touted here as the cure-all is dismissive at best and counterproductive/condescending at worst. To me, it's not much better than saying "just smile more".

Thankfully it's not an issue for me anymore, but those "fixes" were total crap (for me) when it was.

Re: The Depression Thing

#258

Understandably, these threads are full of anecdotal cases of effective depression treatments. But why should we assume the there is is a one-size fits all treatment (or even 3)? I think depression is akin to a common error code in the mind (and maybe body too). If the mind is at least as complicated as the biggest program we can imagine, why should we imagine one thing will likely fix this problem? This is like sugge…

Here is a lengthy compilation of ideas towards coping with depression that I submitted elsewhere but it unfortunately got flagged as spam by Disqus and so was not published in the original context: https://sbindependent.org/depression-and-anxiety-in-college/

It very much reflects your suggestion that there are many causes of depression and many possible coping and/or healing strategies, so I am posting it here. [It just got a "that comment is too long" error message on hn, so I need to split it up...]

====

Hi Jennifer (and any SB Independent readers struggling with depression for themselves or a loved one),

Here is a collection of advice I've posted elsewhere for other people about overcoming depression and other forms of mental illness (or at least coping better with it). I hope this can help. I wish I had know this all when I was an undergrad at SUNY SB a long time ago. Perhaps it might overlap the readings you said a professor suggested to you.

First, remember, the brain is mostly fat. You need to be eating healthy fats (like walnuts, avocado, omega 3s, etc.) for brain health. But that is just a start on what good nutrition involves to get lots of micronutrients (more veggies, fruits, beans, nuts, seeds, whole grains as in "you can see the grain"). Be sure you are getting enough vitamin D3 (which is almost impossible for most people without supplements given our indoor lifestyle and other lifestyle factors). And get enough iodine, like from sea vegetables. And also enough high quality B-complex vitamins.

From Dr. Joel Fuhrman: "Depression doesn't have one specific cause; environmental and genetic factors may be at play, as well as psychosocial stressors, however, a major factor causing depression is unhealthy dietary factors. Fast-food and commercial baked goods are linked to depression in a dose dependent manner, and dietary excellence can be the solution for many suffering individuals. A feeling of a depressed mood can also be a symptom of other medical conditions or a side effect from a medication, so to be sure of what is causing your symptoms, you may need to discuss your depression with your doctor."

Search also on "The UltraMind Solution: The Simple Way to Defeat Depression, Overcome Anxiety, and Sharpen Your Mind" by Dr. Mark Hyman, again focusing on nutrition.

Water-only fasting helps in some cases of mental illness too (especially if brain inflammation is caused by some food allergy). The Russians did a lot of research and practice on that.

Obviously, good mood is more complex than just nutrition. Look at Dr. Andrew Weil for a broader perspective.

Or see an essay by Philip Hickey, Ph.D called: "Depression Is Not An Illness: It is an Adaptive Mechanism"; quoting from that:

    "In order to feel good, the following eight factors must be present in our lives.
   * good nutrition
   * fresh air
   * sunshine (in moderation)
   * physical activity
   * purposeful activity with regular experiences of success
   * good relationships
   * adequate and regular sleep
   * ability to avoid destructive social entanglements, while remaining receptive to positive encounters"
[And when any one or more of those factors are missing -- it can lead to depression, with the likelihood increasing if multiple factors are missing.]

Also, check out: "The Upward Spiral: Using Neuroscience to Reverse the Course of Depression, One Small Change at a Time Paperback" by Alex Korb PhD.

There are lots more resources like that. There are lots of alternatives to placebo-like mental drugs...

Search also on "Sleep deprivation can effectively treat depression" for another option to consider.

Our society is also all too quick to label a "spiritual crisis" as mental illness (see Wikipedia on that term).

Thanks for your series of essays on these mental health topics. I learned something from them, especially about how depression and anxiety can cycle together, where anxiety becomes the only force that can counter depression as far as getting anything done. That doesn't mean that is a happy or health way to be -- but it is informative to understand that cycle, and in that context of depression, the "benefit" of anxiety.

As with Chester Bennington (who I learned about from the article you posted for someone else on that, leading me to your series -- and then watched his band's "Numb" video and a couple others), sometimes if we dwell on the negative, it does not really get us healthier overall. As in helping create the "Numb" video, Chester built on his strength of music and it at least sustained him for a time and helped him help others and in other ways connect with other people like with the rest of the Linkin Park band. And in that "Numb" video, one might hope for the same for the protagonist as there are certainly a lot of people out there who do appreciate art or can be moved by it or who take joy in creating it together with others.

For my generation, Robin Williams is a bit of the same symbol as Chris Bennington -- although he used humor instead of music to connect to people and to manage pain (but not totally cure it). Like all helpful drugs, music and humor can make a difference in sustaining us as we cope with pain, but we still need to address the underlying issues as best we can. And even if both artists lost that battle with pain in the end, they at least had much longer and better lives from building on those strengths -- and the community around them was much better for their long-term willingness to do what they could with what they had. While most of us may never have that level of comedic or musical talent, or the opportunities to refine that talent by years of practice, "the woods would be pretty quiet if no bird sang there but the best". Someone with even a fraction of their level of talent could make the lives of many people around them a lot better with just a little humor or song added to every-day interactions. You can also use a talent as a volunteer or as a hobbyist sharing with others even if you do something else as a day-job.

[continued in a part 2 reply to this...]

Re: The Depression Thing

#259

Understandably, these threads are full of anecdotal cases of effective depression treatments. But why should we assume the there is is a one-size fits all treatment (or even 3)? I think depression is akin to a common error code in the mind (and maybe body too). If the mind is at least as complicated as the biggest program we can imagine, why should we imagine one thing will likely fix this problem? This is like sugge…

Here is a lengthy compilation of ideas towards coping with depression that I submitted elsewhere but it unfortunately got flagged as spam by Disqus and so was not published in the original context: https://sbindependent.org/depression-and-anxiety-in-college/ It very much reflects your suggestion that there are many causes of depression and many possible coping and/or healing strategies, so I am posting it here. [It j…

[part 2 to go with the above]

Look into "Positive Psychology" about building on our strengths -- like you are doing with your writing.

See the movie "It's a Wonderful Life" -- which, at the very least, can make us wonder if there is any chance we could make things even just a tiny bit better for ourselves and/or a few people around us by engaging with life?

There is an insightful comment by "Brian" on Hugh Howey's website under "Our Silos Leak" I saw just last week where he talks about how figuring out why you feel so badly doesn't usually help that much and may even just deepen the traumas. It is focusing on what you want, what makes you happy (within realistic limits) and taking steps toward that which get you to a better place. The comedy "Cold Comfort Farm" has an interesting angle on that.

The main essay on "Silos" is also good in talking about how it is reasonable to minimize our interactions with vexatious people (of any political persuasion) and we can still have occasions to experience new ideas and reflect on them in a less knee-jerk way. And those vexatious interactions can also include (and probably do) much or all of television, "news", and social media.

Search also on "On the Trail of the Orchid Child" for a Scientific American Article on how whether some people's genes can either be a great benefit or a great detriment depending on their environment.

We all have inclinations, habits, preferences, and reactions that can be strengths or weaknesses depending on the situation. Stony Brook itself is like a small city -- it has many different social environments that can be better or worse for different people.

Finding the right niche(s) from all the possibilities that works for you can be a bit of trial and error. But finding the best matches of groups to be part of (including from family, neighbors, clubs, classes, volunteerism, jobs, online, etc.) is essential. All of the above is much easier said than done, and it is more feasible to be healthy when part of a group of others also striving towards health. For example, if you try to eat well and you are surrounded by people eating junk food who are always offering that junk to you and denying its health cost, that just is so much harder than if you are part of a community all trying to eat healthier and supporting each other on that journey with all its ups and downs.

"Bluezones" is another positive touchstone to see how happy people live for a long time -- and a lot of it is just about getting the basics right like in the Philip Hickey quote above.

And then when things get going well (or even before), watch out for "Supernormal Stimuli", "The Pleasure Trap", and "The Acceleration of Addictiveness" (see two books and an essay by those names).

One nurse who was critical of one of Dr. Andrew Weil's books on Amazon pointed out that much ill health is caused by poverty (and I might add, ignorance, which good journalism can help dispel). Like in "A Christmas Carol", "This boy is Ignorance. This girl is Want. Beware them both, and all of their degree, but most of all beware this boy, for on his brow I see that written which is Doom, unless the writing be erased." It is hard to eat well, say, when you can't afford fresh vegetables or don't have the time or place for preparing them -- and also if you just don't know why eating healthier is so important or how to do it.

Long term, social and technical changes like from a basic income, improved subsistence by personal robotics for gardening and preparing healthy food (e.g. Farmbot or Moley Robotics), better organizational planning and governmental accountability, and more gift giving of knowledge via the internet, may help alleviate some of the worst causes of day-to-day pain and worry in the modern age. So, those can be positive changes to work for -- and working towards such things can provide some hope and bring us together with other hopeful and caring people. And underlying all of that is a cultural change and a "global mindshift" towards abundance thinking and favoring cooperation over competition (see Alfie Kohn) which journalism can help with.

And, when all else fails even when we seem to be doing everything we can, consider: "Dark Nights of the Soul: A Guide to Finding Your Way Through Life's Ordeals" by Thomas Moore for finding meaning and even personal growth in the darkness.

Good luck!

Re: The Depression Thing

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please, don't equate being sad with being depressed, sadness is a normal part of the life, feeling miserable every waking moment is not.

How do you define what is "normal" in life? Is it not normal for people to have periods of their lives (weeks, months, years) where they feel constantly miserable/sad due to a variety of reasons?

It's a fair question. The mathematician Ted Kaczynski proposed depression to be largely a modern construct (emphasis mine):

> Imagine a society that subjects people to conditions that make them terribly unhappy, then gives them the drugs to take away their unhappiness. Science fiction? It is already happening to some extent in our own society. It is well known that the rate of clinical depression had been greatly increasing in recent decades. We believe that this is due to disruption of the power process, as explained in paragraphs 59-76. But even if we are wrong, the increasing rate of depression is certainly the result of SOME conditions that exist in today's society. Instead of removing the conditions that make people depressed, modern society gives them antidepressant drugs. In effect, antidepressants are a means of modifying an individual's internal state in such a way as to enable him to tolerate social conditions that he would otherwise find intolerable. (Yes, we know that depression is often of purely genetic origin. We are referring here to those cases in which environment plays the predominant role.)

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