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Where's the Proof That Mindfulness Works?

scientificamerican.com

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Re: Where's the Proof That Mindfulness Works?

#51

Post by alexssung »

erikbye wrote: post #50
alexssung wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you wouldn't be able to do that. They burn themselves to death.

Burning to death only hurts briefly, when the nerves have had enough damage you can't feel. Adrenaline helps block pain, as well. Besides, self-immolation is not exclusive to those who have practiced mindfulness. Ever had a severe accident, like a motorcycle accident, or been ran over by a car? The pain comes after, not in the moment when the trauma occurs.

Yes, the pain is only there before your nerves get burnt out, but even just a minute of being burned alive is enough to make any normal human being, including you and me, react involuntarily to the pain.

And yes, I have been in high pain incidents. I recall the pain happening during and after.

Re: Where's the Proof That Mindfulness Works?

#52

Post by erikbye »

damontal wrote: post #45
erikbye wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what concrete ways will life improve? Also, the premise of that book is wrong (that no human is content).

you could probably get here various ways but the practice of refocusing on my breath as I get caught in thinking/fantasy/etc over and over again really trained me in daily life to sort of snap out of certain situations in order to evaluate. like if i'm in an argument w/ my wife i'm better equipped to pause and try to figure out what is really happening even as the argument occurs. i hate flying. after meditating for…

If this is what mindfulness could do for me I'm doubtful it's something I need; I think I have found other ways in which much the same is achieved. E.g., I've never found difficulty in disconnecting or disengaging from situations, from the moment, nor difficulty in observing my physiological and psychological responses. I immediately recognize people who are unable to perform such separation; they are too caught up in the moment to be able to observe it.

When you say "I get caught in thinking/fantasy/etc," what exactly are you referring to?

I like thinking, and I think a lot; but of course, I've recognized that some thoughts are useless, some are unproductive, and some are harmful. I've trained myself to get rid of those, and I've also made sure to have room for the thoughts I do want. Not only have I made room, but I have techniques and rules I live by which increases the interval at which these thoughts I do want occur.

Re: Where's the Proof That Mindfulness Works?

#53

Post by damontal »

erikbye wrote: post #52
damontal wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you could probably get here various ways but the practice of refocusing on my breath as I get caught in thinking/fantasy/etc over and over again really trained me in daily life to sort of snap out of certain situations in order to evaluate. like if i'm in an argument w/ my wife i'm better equipped to pause and try to figure out what is really happening even as the argument occurs. i hate flying. after meditating for…

If this is what mindfulness could do for me I'm doubtful it's something I need; I think I have found other ways in which much the same is achieved. E.g., I've never found difficulty in disconnecting or disengaging from situations, from the moment, nor difficulty in observing my physiological and psychological responses. I immediately recognize people who are unable to perform such separation; they are too caught up i…

By getting caught I mean that during meditation I am trying to focus all attention on the breath but inevitably I begin thinking of something else or I start daydreaming or fantasizing. The mind wanders. When you realize your mind has wandered away from the breath you bring it back.

Sometimes this can be a jarring experience. Like suddenly waking from a dream.

Re: Where's the Proof That Mindfulness Works?

#54

Post by Danihan »

thinkling wrote: post #48
Danihan wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been working two full-time jobs for more than a year now while maintaining a bi-phasic sleep schedule. Think what you wish, but sitting there in pain for a few minutes while my life ends (by my own accord) doesn't seem all that difficult comparatively. I take on very hard tasks daily, and sustain work on them for a lot longer than three minutes. Don't make me challenge you to a vipassana, friendo.

Does your work normally involve very high levels of physical pain that would make any normal human scream at the top of their lungs?

Yes, I work in IT.

Why do people put monks on such a pedestal?

Re: Where's the Proof That Mindfulness Works?

#55

Post by olleromam91 »

computerex wrote: post #29
warent wrote: post #11

I frequently hear an argument against these practices that they're just a placebo. But wouldn't that actually be an argument for it? If the placebo makes you believe that you have less stress and greater stillness, I don't see how that's different from "really" having less stress. Which means it's not a placebo but really works. Just a food for thought. In any case aside from the endless and consistent anecdotal evid…

The placebo effect operates on the domain of perception. In other words, placebo is a psychological effect, which may deceive a patient into perceiving that he or she is getting better even though the sugar pills they just took had no physiological response from the body. Stress has a big psychological component, but it is also something that can be physilogically seen and can be measured. It's important to see the d…

Stress reduction is one of the few goals of mindfulness though, so it has to be an example.

Re: Where's the Proof That Mindfulness Works?

#56

Post by Danihan »

davzie wrote: post #43
Danihan wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been working two full-time jobs for more than a year now while maintaining a bi-phasic sleep schedule. Think what you wish, but sitting there in pain for a few minutes while my life ends (by my own accord) doesn't seem all that difficult comparatively. I take on very hard tasks daily, and sustain work on them for a lot longer than three minutes. Don't make me challenge you to a vipassana, friendo.

/r/iamverysmart

Your previous comment is about procrastinating for 6.5 hours every day while dreaming of changing careers.

You realize not everyone has the luxury of living like that, right?

Re: Where's the Proof That Mindfulness Works?

#57

Post by olleromam91 »

emodendroket wrote: post #32

Frankly a lot of times "mindfulness" seems backwards. If I'm upset about something happening in the present, absolute focus on the present seems like not really the best approach, and I don't think indulging in thinking about the future or reminiscing about the past are really features you need to beat out of yourself. Also I was talked into reading the Power of Now and it's one of the most ridiculous things I've eve…

Embracing and experiencing emotions in the present moment is exactly what the concept of mindfulness aims to teach. Repression of emotions is widely considered an ineffective strategy of coping with negative circumstances.

Stress and depression and other mental health conditions are determined much more by concerns about the past or future, questioning why or how things have or will happen. That's not to say that these are unreasonable thoughts...but for afflicted people, they can become consumed by these thoughts. If people wanted to become monks and completely live in the present, that's their choice. But striking a balance is probably a more reasonable goal for someone with aspirations of success...or whatever.

Re: Where's the Proof That Mindfulness Works?

#58

Post by [deleted] »

davzie wrote: post #43
Danihan wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been working two full-time jobs for more than a year now while maintaining a bi-phasic sleep schedule. Think what you wish, but sitting there in pain for a few minutes while my life ends (by my own accord) doesn't seem all that difficult comparatively. I take on very hard tasks daily, and sustain work on them for a lot longer than three minutes. Don't make me challenge you to a vipassana, friendo.

/r/iamverysmart

[deleted]

Re: Where's the Proof That Mindfulness Works?

#59

Post by olleromam91 »

Y_Y wrote: post #12
magic_beans wrote: post #2

Try it.

What are you implying? That the fact that Buddhism exists means mindfulness is an effective way of dealing with stress and pain? You could say the same of alcohol or Christianity or depression.

Do you know of cases where people have to be counseled for harmful effects of meditation?

Re: Where's the Proof That Mindfulness Works?

#60

Post by thinkling »

emodendroket wrote: post #49
thinkling wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If one feels anger and is not mindful or "present", one is likely to act angrily. If instead one feels anger and is mindful about it, one acknowledges the anger but keeps room to decide how to act. This seems to me an improvement. (As I mentioned above, you go from "I'm angry!" to "I notice there is anger present" and that non-identification leaves room to decide how to act. Sure, this is harder with emotions that go…

That seems like old-fashioned self-restraint. One frustration of this stuff is the difficulty in pinning down exactly what the claims are.

To me, saying "it's hard to pin down what the claims for meditation are" is a bit like saying "it's hard to pin down what the claims for psychiatry are". Meditation comes in several flavors and within the flavors is practiced in very different ways. The top level claim is "this will make you feel better" but when you try to verify that you're going to have to restrict it to something narrow that doesn't represent the whole thing.

The self-restraint aspect of mindfulness is one superficial outcome of the practice, one which I think emerges quickly if you engage with mindfulness. It's not the whole thing.

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