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Where's the Proof That Mindfulness Works?

scientificamerican.com

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Re: Where's the Proof That Mindfulness Works?

#41

Post by ineptech »

11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #8

Engaging in mindfulness implies changing what you think about, or, where your focus is. This can be therapeutic to persons who are suffer from anxiety and depression because it interrupts periods where negative thoughts dominate their consciousness and replaces them with periods where their thoughts focused on current circumstances that are generally benign or pleasant. For persons who don't benefit from such therapy…

> This can be therapeutic to persons who are suffer from...

The lack of rigorous scientific support for this assertion is the entire point of this article (and the journal article it summarizes).

Re: Where's the Proof That Mindfulness Works?

#42

Post by thinkling »

nabla9 wrote: post #16

As someone who has meditated 20 years, 2-4 hours per day and participated in long retreats 7 days to month, I have always been skeptical about this "mindfulness business". It has it's roots in old meditation traditions, but they were never supposed to bee quick fix, relaxation or therapy. Many therapy methods work well with the therapist who developed it, but don't give good results when packaged into programs and co…

My experience (personal and from a few friends) is that there's a step function. A small amount of initial meditation gives some immediate benefit. Continuing to do that same thing yields little more. Further benefit takes a much larger effort until new plateau.

Specifically, I think there's definite short-term benefit to be had from small amounts of relaxation-oriented meditation, and from the common teaching "don't identify with the feeling" ("I am angry" vs "I notice anger is present"), allowing some freedom in reaction different from acting out the emotion that is felt.

Re: Where's the Proof That Mindfulness Works?

#43

Post by davzie »

Danihan wrote: post #33
alexssung wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I think I could fly, but I'm not going to try. See how that works?

I've been working two full-time jobs for more than a year now while maintaining a bi-phasic sleep schedule. Think what you wish, but sitting there in pain for a few minutes while my life ends (by my own accord) doesn't seem all that difficult comparatively. I take on very hard tasks daily, and sustain work on them for a lot longer than three minutes. Don't make me challenge you to a vipassana, friendo.

/r/iamverysmart

Re: Where's the Proof That Mindfulness Works?

#44

Post by thinkling »

11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #8

Engaging in mindfulness implies changing what you think about, or, where your focus is. This can be therapeutic to persons who are suffer from anxiety and depression because it interrupts periods where negative thoughts dominate their consciousness and replaces them with periods where their thoughts focused on current circumstances that are generally benign or pleasant. For persons who don't benefit from such therapy…

Just as easily I could argue that being more mindful can mean becoming more aware of the anxiety that is present, and that clearing one's mind leaves more room for clear analytical thought. I think you are analyzing from an armchair, not from a meditation cushion.

Re: Where's the Proof That Mindfulness Works?

#45

Post by damontal »

erikbye wrote: post #38
orasis wrote: post #3

You could wait for the research to be conclusive, or you could dive in right now and radically improve your life. I recommend starting with the free short book, Mindfulness In Plain English - http://www.wisdompubs.org/sites/default/files/preview/Mindfu...

In what concrete ways will life improve? Also, the premise of that book is wrong (that no human is content).

you could probably get here various ways but the practice of refocusing on my breath as I get caught in thinking/fantasy/etc over and over again really trained me in daily life to sort of snap out of certain situations in order to evaluate.

like if i'm in an argument w/ my wife i'm better equipped to pause and try to figure out what is really happening even as the argument occurs.

i hate flying. after meditating for a year or so i would fly and still be scared but would able to sit and experience fear and watch it. see what it does to my body, my stomach, breathing, etc. doing this didn't completely remove the fear but it made it interesting.

haven't really meditated for a very long time but it did help me.

Re: Where's the Proof That Mindfulness Works?

#46

Post by contravariant »

bad_user wrote: post #24
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's kind of begging the question, though. The question is, will diving in radically improve my life? I'm not saying it won't, by the way. I myself practice something that some might consider to be mindfulness. But you are assuming facts not in evidence, as a lawyer might say.

Evidence is hard to get due to variables in such studies. You have to observe people's daily routine for a long period of time, which gets to be expensive. You also cannot fool the subject, or the people monitoring progress, so there's no way to do such studies double-blind. For these reasons studies on nutrition are also hard and mostly flawed. But do we need a study to tell us that sugar is poison? Well, ok, we do,…

I'm sorry but why on earth would you accept a vague almost anecdotal correlation, while rejecting scientifically conducted nutrition studies?

I'll grant you that nutritional science is hard, but surely holding studies to a lower standard isn't a logical solution?

Re: Where's the Proof That Mindfulness Works?

#47

Post by thinkling »

emodendroket wrote: post #32

Frankly a lot of times "mindfulness" seems backwards. If I'm upset about something happening in the present, absolute focus on the present seems like not really the best approach, and I don't think indulging in thinking about the future or reminiscing about the past are really features you need to beat out of yourself. Also I was talked into reading the Power of Now and it's one of the most ridiculous things I've eve…

If one feels anger and is not mindful or "present", one is likely to act angrily.

If instead one feels anger and is mindful about it, one acknowledges the anger but keeps room to decide how to act. This seems to me an improvement.

(As I mentioned above, you go from "I'm angry!" to "I notice there is anger present" and that non-identification leaves room to decide how to act. Sure, this is harder with emotions that go on a long time, e.g. being 'OK" with the presence of anxiety.)

"Absolute focus" and true constant mindfulness is a thing for advanced meditators that you won't get from 20 minutes a day.

Re: Where's the Proof That Mindfulness Works?

#48

Post by thinkling »

Danihan wrote: post #33
alexssung wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I think I could fly, but I'm not going to try. See how that works?

I've been working two full-time jobs for more than a year now while maintaining a bi-phasic sleep schedule. Think what you wish, but sitting there in pain for a few minutes while my life ends (by my own accord) doesn't seem all that difficult comparatively. I take on very hard tasks daily, and sustain work on them for a lot longer than three minutes. Don't make me challenge you to a vipassana, friendo.

Does your work normally involve very high levels of physical pain that would make any normal human scream at the top of their lungs?

Re: Where's the Proof That Mindfulness Works?

#49

Post by emodendroket »

thinkling wrote: post #47
emodendroket wrote: post #32

Frankly a lot of times "mindfulness" seems backwards. If I'm upset about something happening in the present, absolute focus on the present seems like not really the best approach, and I don't think indulging in thinking about the future or reminiscing about the past are really features you need to beat out of yourself. Also I was talked into reading the Power of Now and it's one of the most ridiculous things I've eve…

If one feels anger and is not mindful or "present", one is likely to act angrily. If instead one feels anger and is mindful about it, one acknowledges the anger but keeps room to decide how to act. This seems to me an improvement. (As I mentioned above, you go from "I'm angry!" to "I notice there is anger present" and that non-identification leaves room to decide how to act. Sure, this is harder with emotions that go…

That seems like old-fashioned self-restraint. One frustration of this stuff is the difficulty in pinning down exactly what the claims are.

Re: Where's the Proof That Mindfulness Works?

#50

Post by erikbye »

alexssung wrote: post #23
Danihan wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure I could do that too without much practice. Assuming it was an intentional choice, anyway. Your body can only handle so much pain before it basically shuts off, and then you don't feel much of anything. The real pain comes later, when you're healing. Not going to test it out though.

No, you wouldn't be able to do that. They burn themselves to death.

Burning to death only hurts briefly, when the nerves have had enough damage you can't feel. Adrenaline helps block pain, as well. Besides, self-immolation is not exclusive to those who have practiced mindfulness.

Ever had a severe accident, like a motorcycle accident, or been ran over by a car? The pain comes after, not in the moment when the trauma occurs.

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