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Google's $19B Black Box Is Worrying Investors

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Re: Google's $19B Black Box Is Worrying Investors

#51

Post by AlphaSite »

holtalanm wrote: post #47
_ea1k wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with some of your critique, but I also think you are giving Apple a little too much credit. Yes you can compile and install your own software, but AFAIK, you have to pay a yearly fee for the privilege of doing so. This isn't nearly as open as Android phones, where it is a simple matter of checking a box. I definitely agree with you that Google isn't giving away the code for philanthropic reasons, though. I ca…

>Yes you can compile and install your own software, but AFAIK, you have to pay a yearly fee for the privilege of doing so Yes. And you have to own one of their overpriced computers too.

You don’t need to pay a fee but you do need a Mac.

Re: Google's $19B Black Box Is Worrying Investors

#52

Post by muninn_ »

AceJohnny2 wrote: post #28
neonhomer wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm one of those people who gladly use an iPhone with mostly Google apps (namely Chrome, Gmail and Maps). My little experience with Android has always been negative. The only real annoyance with iOS is you can't set Chrome nor Maps as default applications.

I'm in the same boat. My dream device would be iPhone HW with Android software. I like Android's flexibility, the replaceable home screen instead of the list of apps, the Intents system that lets you replace an app handler with another (Chrome & Maps for example), the much better notification system... I have an iPhone now (because work), and it took a few months to stop grumbling, but I definitely appreciated the ov…

One of the issues is that running Android software on an iPhone inherently breaks a lot of the things that you love about iPhone. The reason is because of Apple’s verticals integration. Running Android would negate this and likely result in a not-so-great experience compared to native iOS.

Re: Google's $19B Black Box Is Worrying Investors

#53

Post by arctux »

mrtksn wrote: post #30
mankash666 wrote: post #2

It's rather sad that Google needs to pay Android makers a fee for installing it's apps, given how Google gives away source code that makes Android exist in the first place. On the contrary, Apple's ecosystem is completely closed, app cut fairly high and non-negotiable at 30% and app store rejections arbitrary at best and blatantly anti competitive at worst. In the name of user centricity, their platform places arbitr…

We all love Google's products but your comment is needlessly emotional. Google is not charity, it's always good to remember that. Google is not giving away the source code of Android for philanthropic reasons, it's just part of the business model, i.e. the process of money making to pay the employees and the shareholders. Oh and Apple is definitely not putting arbitrary restrictions to anything, all the restrictions…

>Google is not giving away the source code of Android for philanthropic reasons, it's just part of the business model, i.e. the process of money making to pay the employees and the shareholders.

They're also "giving away" a smaller and smaller fraction of Android with each release. This article is four years old, but quite relevant: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/10/googles-iron-grip-on... A non-exclusive list of Android apps that are no longer open source: Camera, Gallery, Keyboard, Music.

In order to include any Google apps or use the Android trademark, you are required to include almost all Google apps and make no other apps default. Further, Google makes it substantially easier to license their apps if you join the Open Handset Alliance (OHA), which contractually prohibits you from building non-Google approved devices.

Re: Google's $19B Black Box Is Worrying Investors

#54

Post by ariwilson »

kn0where wrote: post #39
_ea1k wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with some of your critique, but I also think you are giving Apple a little too much credit. Yes you can compile and install your own software, but AFAIK, you have to pay a yearly fee for the privilege of doing so. This isn't nearly as open as Android phones, where it is a simple matter of checking a box. I definitely agree with you that Google isn't giving away the code for philanthropic reasons, though. I ca…

> AFAIK, you have to pay a yearly fee for the privilege of doing so. That hasn't been the case for a number of years. As long as you have a Mac, you can download Xcode for free, compile an app, and sync it over to your iOS device.

Super simple to do as an end user, for sure.

Re: Google's $19B Black Box Is Worrying Investors

#55

Post by ariwilson »

sunstone wrote: post #48

Google may have expected the Android ecosystem to resemble the DOS/Windows ecosystem of the past ie many diverse companies competing for market share. It hasn't turned out that way. A few major players have come to dominate the cell phone market and the also rans have mostly exited the market. The major's market share now gives them the clout to demand higher fees from Google. And all of this has led Google to now co…

This is not true at all. A huge number of OEMs have come out of China and (to a much lesser extent) the US over the last few years and taken substantial market share. Huawei, Xiaomi, etc.

Re: Google's $19B Black Box Is Worrying Investors

#56

Post by carrier_lost »

Animats wrote: post #46

$19bn. We all knew about Google paying Apple to stay on the iPhone. That's $3bn.[1] There's the old deal with Mozilla to be the default search engine in Firefox, but that's over. But there must be a lot of other deals to add up to $19 billion. That Google has to pay to be on the front of Android handsets is surprising. Isn't that enforced by the bundling agreement Google requires to use the Google-proprietary parts o…

I wonder how much Google pays PC manufacturers to have Chrome as the default browser. A few years ago I purchased a Lenovo laptop that had Chrome pre-installed as the default. The desktop shortcut label was simply "Internet Browser".

Re: Google's $19B Black Box Is Worrying Investors

#57

Post by bobwaycott »

ariwilson wrote: post #54
kn0where wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> AFAIK, you have to pay a yearly fee for the privilege of doing so. That hasn't been the case for a number of years. As long as you have a Mac, you can download Xcode for free, compile an app, and sync it over to your iOS device.

Super simple to do as an end user, for sure.

Your average end user who requires things to be simple is never going to install their own apps outside the approved, simple channels.

Re: Google's $19B Black Box Is Worrying Investors

#58

Post by valine »

giobox wrote: post #40
_ea1k wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with some of your critique, but I also think you are giving Apple a little too much credit. Yes you can compile and install your own software, but AFAIK, you have to pay a yearly fee for the privilege of doing so. This isn't nearly as open as Android phones, where it is a simple matter of checking a box. I definitely agree with you that Google isn't giving away the code for philanthropic reasons, though. I ca…

> Yes you can compile and install your own software, but AFAIK, you have to pay a yearly fee for the privilege of doing so. While this was true in the past, this hasn't been the case for a while if you want to build and run on your own personal device. There are some minor caveats, but if you want to compile and run an app locally on your device you don't need to pay Apple the $99 any more. The idea that the version…

This is only true if you're fine with reinstalling the side-loaded app every week. This is a pretty major caveat imo. If you want the app to stay on your device past a week you need to buy the paid Apple Developer subscription.

Re: Google's $19B Black Box Is Worrying Investors

#59

Post by mankash666 »

psykotic wrote: post #25
mankash666 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're free to run your own app store, like Amazon fire devices, and not subscribe to GMS. Why shouldn't Google get something in return for enabling phone makers with an OS and app store? They're a for profit company after all

Sure, and the AFA has a pro-developer and pro-consumer side by reducing fragmentation. But I think it's important to understand that the open source aspect of Android is a small part of the story in practice for device makers. The narrative that Google is just "giving it away for free" is naive at best for the very reason you state: they're a profit-driven megacorp.

I'm not naive, but everyone takes the OS source code and platform for granted, and asks, "what else can I get"?

It's obvious that Android has enabled and continues to enable an ecosystem of hardware companies to thrive. These companies have tried repeatedly to build their own software, but with NO commercial success. Imagine a world with an Apple like Android, Google owning the software, closed sourced, walled, yada yada ... That's still a possibility if the ludicrous EU actions on Android don't stop. Google makes about 1/10th the revenue and 1/100th the profit off Android as Apple makes off the iOS product lines.

Android's ecosystem gets a LOT more out of Google than Google gets out of Android

EDIT: Samsung, LG, Huawei, ... they're even relevant in phones because of Google. I doubt it's the other way around. Samsung is SO scared of Google cutting it off that it tries repeatedly with alternate OS-es --> everything from Tizen to windows phones. Nothing sticks

Re: Google's $19B Black Box Is Worrying Investors

#60

Post by tsycho »

giobox wrote: post #40
_ea1k wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with some of your critique, but I also think you are giving Apple a little too much credit. Yes you can compile and install your own software, but AFAIK, you have to pay a yearly fee for the privilege of doing so. This isn't nearly as open as Android phones, where it is a simple matter of checking a box. I definitely agree with you that Google isn't giving away the code for philanthropic reasons, though. I ca…

> Yes you can compile and install your own software, but AFAIK, you have to pay a yearly fee for the privilege of doing so. While this was true in the past, this hasn't been the case for a while if you want to build and run on your own personal device. There are some minor caveats, but if you want to compile and run an app locally on your device you don't need to pay Apple the $99 any more. The idea that the version…

> There are some minor caveats

One of the "minor caveats" is that the app only runs on your own device for max 1 week, after which it will have to be reinstalled via Xcode.

Which basically makes this useless even if all you wanted to do was run your own code on your own device. I have tried this for small apps I made for myself, but after re-installing 2-3 times, the annoyance was too high for me to continue.

In contrast, and while I am way more experienced and comfortable with the Apple SDKs/dev environment, deploying a small app that I built for my wife was ridiculously easy, and continues to run fine without me touching it for more than a year now.

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