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Deutsche Bank makes source code publicly available for the first time

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Re: Deutsche Bank makes source code publicly available for the first time

#191

Post by Shaanie »

earlybike wrote: post #180
mihaifm wrote: post #115

This is mostly a PR move. I currently work at DB, I can say that they make it look nice from the outside, but when you get here what you find is a large mess. It's a big difference between a bank and a company that actually ships software. Most of the work here is done in interfacing systems together, and moving data from one place to another. There is no focus on quality, just patching things together and making the…

OT: Imagine you hire somebody and this person publicly posts that some of your company's work "is a large mess" after you worked months to improve the situation. Even if DB hasn't deserved any credits for this "PR move", is this fair? Why is a PR move worse than an employee who publicly badmouths his employer while being on the payroll? And why is this tolerated (upvoted) when it's a large corporation? Edit: thanks f…

It's perfectly fair to point out how things actually look in practice. It's upvoted because it presents another (probably more realistic) picture instead of the marketing spiel that DB wants you to believe.

Why do you not think that employees should be allowed to discuss how their workplace looks in reality?

Re: Deutsche Bank makes source code publicly available for the first time

#192

Post by dogruck »

cjbenedikt wrote: post #187
dogruck wrote: post #28

Can someone please give a few specific examples of what this software does?

Autobahn is a realtime platform to buy and sell currencies.

Thank you, but I did read that summary in their press release.

For example, what features does it have that would let me buy and sell securities?

Re: Deutsche Bank makes source code publicly available for the first time

#193

Post by usr1106 »

Horusiath wrote: post #116
mihaifm wrote: post #115

This is mostly a PR move. I currently work at DB, I can say that they make it look nice from the outside, but when you get here what you find is a large mess. It's a big difference between a bank and a company that actually ships software. Most of the work here is done in interfacing systems together, and moving data from one place to another. There is no focus on quality, just patching things together and making the…

This is not only a DB specific, a whole banking industry works like that. Systems that have <10 years are considered new ones. To keep things working, just produce 5x more services created solely to move data from one place to another. No focus on programming discipline or sense of purpose and constant fear to change anything, because that could break things and we have not enough tests or monitoring infrastructure t…

This is not banking specific, the whole SW industry works like that. I have worked over 20 years in a couple of companies, where SW was an essential part of our products. Yet the quality has never been good, it's a bloat of solving similar problems again and again. Architecture is a mess, even if there are n architects who can present nice diagrams. (I have seen n=1 and n>30, but the fundamental problem is the same)

Re: Deutsche Bank makes source code publicly available for the first time

#194

Post by usr1106 »

usr1106 wrote: post #193
Horusiath wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not only a DB specific, a whole banking industry works like that. Systems that have <10 years are considered new ones. To keep things working, just produce 5x more services created solely to move data from one place to another. No focus on programming discipline or sense of purpose and constant fear to change anything, because that could break things and we have not enough tests or monitoring infrastructure t…

This is not banking specific, the whole SW industry works like that. I have worked over 20 years in a couple of companies, where SW was an essential part of our products. Yet the quality has never been good, it's a bloat of solving similar problems again and again. Architecture is a mess, even if there are n architects who can present nice diagrams. (I have seen n=1 and n>30, but the fundamental problem is the same)

To extend my thoughts a bit.

Yes, I believe that some sectors might be worse than others. There are metrics and tools provided by the Software Engineering discipline to measure quality of architecture or code. However, they have remained mostly academic. There is no standard metric, which is widely accepted to be useful. And even if some rare(?) company might systematically measure their code base, they don't put the results in the their home page and not even in the contract with their customer.

As long as that does not change, it's just more or less educated feeling where the situation might be better or worse than elsewhere.

Re: Deutsche Bank makes source code publicly available for the first time

#195

Post by bastijn »

alsetmusic wrote: post #70
skissane wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, if you have an ancestor who was near-sighted, you are automatically disqualified from any colonization missions (regardless of your own eyesight) due to the presence of potentially-flawed genes. I don't find the future you describe very plausible. Keep in mind that you only inherit (on average) half of each parent's genes, a quarter of each grandparent's, an eighth of each great grandparent – so even i…

Not the person you responded to, but I think that the point of the analogy was to illustrate that information can be used in unanticipated ways. Shifts in politics have frequently resulted in the persecution of formerly innocuous people and groups (see McCarthyism). Greater and greater data processing and storage will inevitably be turned against various targets. While we can’t prevent that entirely, we can at least…

Exactly. Money obtained through heritage being one thing. Cancer in the family raising health insurance another (if all open information shows cancer they can assume next generations will as well). Near sighted raising car insurance. Grandpa being a bank robber making kids have a hard time in preschool (or probably be a hero nowadays). Grandpa being a kid high school shooter being disclosed. Sex offenders. Well, you get the point. Confidentiality is not something to let forgo easily. Once lost it can never be obtained again.

So while you may be comfortably dead your descendants may pay the penalty in unexpected ways. A suitable time frame would probably be beyond centuries but rather like today finding Neanderthals (prehistoric men).

This is all apart from the breach of contract in a social sense.

Re: Deutsche Bank makes source code publicly available for the first time

#197

Post by bald »

lmkg wrote: post #186
eru wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any complicated spreadsheet might be a bug ridden mess, but at least it's one the finance guys understand and can augment themselves. Alternatively they could wait for in-house IT to take a few years and millions of pounds (add going running over schedule and budget, too) to produce a bug ridden mess that misses.

Programmers tend to look at shitty programs and imagine better ways that it could have been done... In practice the competitor to a shitty program is not a better program, but no program at all. Even shitty software can still make the world a better place, and the preponderance of half-assed bug-ridden brain-dead garbage software should be seen as a good thing.

thank you. I have the feeling that many participants in this overall chauvinistic discussion here see themselves as artists that always produce perfect outcomes, ignoring the history and productivity of the software actually in place.

Re: Deutsche Bank makes source code publicly available for the first time

#198

Post by longerthoughts »

indescions_2017 wrote: post #172
mihaifm wrote: post #115

This is mostly a PR move. I currently work at DB, I can say that they make it look nice from the outside, but when you get here what you find is a large mess. It's a big difference between a bank and a company that actually ships software. Most of the work here is done in interfacing systems together, and moving data from one place to another. There is no focus on quality, just patching things together and making the…

Day to day traditional banking operations will be slow to innovate. Partially due to the regulatory burden as you describe. But also the perception there is little financial upside for the investment. Outside of that however change is happening. And you will see new products coming out of "Innovations" groups operating entrepreneurially. My colleagues at WF and JPMC are busy experimenting with distributed ledger tech…

It's worth stressing your point on perceived limitations of financial upside. I work for what is effectively a fintech business within a large financial firm and this is a constant hindrance to innovation because investment tends toward short term gains. I think it really comes down to how low the bar is set for software used by financial institutions with respect to originality and pushing boundaries. There's simply not much pressure to do extraordinary things because clients are accustomed to such laborious, outdated systems and processes. I hear a lot of fluffy talk about leveraging modern technologies and being pioneers but when it comes to building out teams and buying into exciting projects, leadership can't seem to find their wallets unless a client has specifically asked for something.

You mentioned that your colleagues are working on things that break this mold - I won't try to speak for their companies, but in my experience those sorts of experimental projects (e.g. distributed ledger tech) tend to be wildly underfunded and consequently don't deliver much beyond an overblown, hype-building press release.

Re: Deutsche Bank makes source code publicly available for the first time

#199

Post by Smurfix »

posterboy wrote: post #121
Horusiath wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not only a DB specific, a whole banking industry works like that. Systems that have <10 years are considered new ones. To keep things working, just produce 5x more services created solely to move data from one place to another. No focus on programming discipline or sense of purpose and constant fear to change anything, because that could break things and we have not enough tests or monitoring infrastructure t…

It's a fact that you can't ever have enough tests, because, for one, the tests are not tested.

Of course the tests are tested – by the code they're covering, which is also covered by other tests.
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