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Microsoft gives up on Windows 10 Mobile

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Microsoft gives up on Windows 10 Mobile

#641

Post by deafcalculus »

Animats wrote: post #617
itsmenotyou wrote: post #30

I was working in Microsoft about 5 years ago and Satya's not lying when they say they tried everything to incentivise app developers. It was a big focus of the company at the time. For keystone apps they tried to partner with developers doing most of the work for them. For more niche apps they ran promotions for students and independent developers giving away free phones etc. But nothing was enough to get over the pr…

Do apps matter much, after the top ones? All the volume is in the top 10 apps now. After the top 100, does it matter at all?

That's what I thought too. But the top 100 might be different for different people.

Re: Microsoft gives up on Windows 10 Mobile

#642

Post by criddell »

pjmlp wrote: post #623
criddell wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe there's a cautionary tale about being an early adopter here. I don't know if I would start a new project with MFC, but it was a fantastic decision in 1996. In a way, I think it's harder to pick technologies today for large projects. It seems like if something isn't new and growing steadily, it's stale and fading fast. What are the tools and frameworks with a long, healthy middle age ahead of them? I'm learning…

Kind of, OWL and VCL were much better technology but Borland's management...

Oh man, I remember those now. You're right - they were better. It reinforces my point about how difficult it is to choose a long-term technology. It feels a little like picking stocks.

Re: Microsoft gives up on Windows 10 Mobile

#643

Post by bonesss »

j_s wrote: post #545
narrator wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing about the MS platforms that has always been an issue is that they change the developer APIs around all the time. Every year they come out with the latest greatest way to access a database or whatever and it really isn't that much better than what they had last year, but it still requires a rewrite.

Microsoft used to only make money selling software licenses. This has changed with Azure cloud stuff, but the majority of their incentives still don't align with their developer/customers.

With Azure they can bill you for the licenses and the computing platform, while also ensuring a pretty impressive degree of lock-in once the platform is sold.

Not only are their incentives still out of alignment, the massive consultant eco-system they maintain is still incentivized to push the same-old lock in in a new costume.

SOAs are like partners in bed... it's not just about who you're sleeping with, you gotta think about who they have slept with too.

Re: Microsoft gives up on Windows 10 Mobile

#646

Post by kuschku »

pjmlp wrote: post #644
kuschku wrote: post #640

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plus 90% of the addons. Only a handful of them aren’t.

So how do you compile the add-ons that require the closed source part?

You don’t, you don’t need them, and Android Studio doesn’t include them either.

You can have all the features of Android Studio in all the languages I mentioned just with the open plugins.

Re: Microsoft gives up on Windows 10 Mobile

#647

Post by nathan_f77 »

itsmenotyou wrote: post #30

I was working in Microsoft about 5 years ago and Satya's not lying when they say they tried everything to incentivise app developers. It was a big focus of the company at the time. For keystone apps they tried to partner with developers doing most of the work for them. For more niche apps they ran promotions for students and independent developers giving away free phones etc. But nothing was enough to get over the pr…

I couldn't find any incentives as a solo game developer earlier this year. I developed a game with React Native and thought it would be interesting to release a Windows Phone [1] version... but it was not. I think I only had one person install it, and that was a friend who I asked to try it out. Of course, the main reason is probably that my game is just not very compelling, or I failed with marketing. But I definitely won't be launching any more apps for Windows.

I would have loved to get a free Windows phone so I could have tested the game on a real device, but it makes sense that they can't just give away phones to random indie developers.

[1] https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/p/sudoblock/9np72dfcvk...

Re: Microsoft gives up on Windows 10 Mobile

#648

Post by oceanswave »

pjmlp wrote: post #619
pcwalton wrote: post #558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Win32 is in no way less horrible than the Web. Win32 doesn't have any device-independent layout, at all. Forget about handling HiDPI sensibly. RegisterClassEx/CreateWindowEx are incredibly verbose. WndProcs are a mess compared to individual event handlers. The mishmash of COM and inconsistently named C APIs is terrible. COM involves a monstrous amount of boilerplate. COM requires you to deal with apartment threading,…

Yet I would rather take all of that than dealing with Frankenstein CSS/HTML/JavaScript programming, while making sure it is pixel perfect across all browsers and not making use of the OS features and computer hardware that made me buy it in first place, e.g. WebGL 2.0 on DX 12 GPU. Most of the issues you mention are solved in .NET, WPF and UWP. COM is a breeze to use in Delphi, MFC/ATL, .NET, C++/CX. Windows is much…

Despite the populist mindset that programming the web is a shitshow, it’s really not. Tooling these days is pretty incredible and the ecosystem is pretty great when you are found needing - issues get fixed, PR’s get accepted. It’s a much better experience than a 20 year old environment where everything is set in stone, yet bugs and inconsistencies still exist.

The tools and software for traditional windows app programming have long been neglected and the newer ones throw you into a niche — and still don’t provide a cohesive story.

I would much rather pick up react and produce a working product in less time it takes to troubleshoot XAML databindng and styles, for instance. If my windows app needed something like a map component, I can drop one in my macOS, iOS app - the same one baked into the os - and on the web have an assortment of components to choose from — with WebGL support baked in.

Also, there isn’t such thing as a DX only gfx card - it happily runs OpenGL games and apps just fine

Re: Microsoft gives up on Windows 10 Mobile

#649

Post by pjmlp »

kuschku wrote: post #646
pjmlp wrote: post #644

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how do you compile the add-ons that require the closed source part?

You don’t, you don’t need them, and Android Studio doesn’t include them either. You can have all the features of Android Studio in all the languages I mentioned just with the open plugins.

No, because Google has changed the way wizards work, which means any plugin needs to be developed explicitly for Android Studio as well.

As proof of this, the Flutter team just released a version of their plugins for Android Studio.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/flutter-dev/D6pvqM09...

Android Studio also includes bits of CLion for example.

Re: Microsoft gives up on Windows 10 Mobile

#650

Post by pjmlp »

oceanswave wrote: post #648
pjmlp wrote: post #619

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet I would rather take all of that than dealing with Frankenstein CSS/HTML/JavaScript programming, while making sure it is pixel perfect across all browsers and not making use of the OS features and computer hardware that made me buy it in first place, e.g. WebGL 2.0 on DX 12 GPU. Most of the issues you mention are solved in .NET, WPF and UWP. COM is a breeze to use in Delphi, MFC/ATL, .NET, C++/CX. Windows is much…

Despite the populist mindset that programming the web is a shitshow, it’s really not. Tooling these days is pretty incredible and the ecosystem is pretty great when you are found needing - issues get fixed, PR’s get accepted. It’s a much better experience than a 20 year old environment where everything is set in stone, yet bugs and inconsistencies still exist. The tools and software for traditional windows app progra…

> Tooling these days is pretty incredible and the ecosystem is pretty great when you are found needing - issues get fixed, PR’s get accepted. It’s a much better experience than a 20 year old environment where everything is set in stone, yet bugs and inconsistencies still exist.

Try to make a CRUD SPA as fast as a Delphi one, including a nice L&F by default, just with mouse clicks and setting a few properties.

> Also, there isn’t such thing as a DX only gfx card - it happily runs OpenGL games and apps just fine

This statement means you don't have much experience in graphics programming, at least regarding the fun of dealing with drivers and how OEMs classify GPU features.

So if you prefer I will rephrase it as "WebGL 2.0 on OpenGL 4.6 GPU".

Now feel free to compare what it means in GPU features.

Hint, WebGL 2.0 is basically OpenGL ES 3.0, which maps to OpenGL 4.3.

https://www.khronos.org/developers/reference-cards/

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