Live data from Hacker News

First detection of the missing half of normal matter in our universe

newscientist.com

51–60 of 131 posts

Re: First detection of the missing half of normal matter in our universe

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, thanks. So what's preventing "dark matter" from simply being, say, lots of photons traveling through intergalactic space then? That seems like the next obvious candidate after ordinary matter.

Photons lack mass right?

not exactly. As photons are constantly moving at the speed of light (citing the theory of relativity I don't really understand) they have no resting mass. But they have an impuls and create a force of impact (used in sun sails) from which a theoretical notion of ... mass (kinetic, perhaps?) can be derived. I'd like to know how it's derived originally, too though.

edit: if E=mc² with E(photon)=f•h and f=c/λ, then m=h/(λc) in vacuum. ... I hope that's correct. What's interesting, [m]=J/[a]/m

Re: First detection of the missing half of normal matter in our universe

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, thanks. So what's preventing "dark matter" from simply being, say, lots of photons traveling through intergalactic space then? That seems like the next obvious candidate after ordinary matter.

Photons lack mass right?

Well I read [1] [2] that they do have gravity... which is probably a more direct answer to what you're asking. I'm not sure what counts as "mass" for a photon per se, except that I assume there's an effective mass via the energy.

[1] https://www.quora.com/How-does-a-photon-exert-gravitational-...

[2] https://physics.stackexchange.com/a/22878

Re: First detection of the missing half of normal matter in our universe

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> basically only gravity and not EM or other forces I don't understand how physicists make any sense of this in any kind of theory. If you had enough dark matter sitting in some spot that could turn into a star, suddenly the claim is any ordinary matter around it would stay near absolute zero no matter how much nuclear fusion was going on at the same spot? How does that work? Or would dark matter just somehow resist…

A star begins as a huge lump of gravitationally bound gas. This gas runs into each other, that's how it has pressure and temperature, even when it is as diffuse as a proto-stellar nebula is (which can be on the order of tens to hundreds of atoms per cubic centimeter). The nebula goes through cycles of compression and radiation, as the gas collapses due to gravitation it heats up, raising the pressure and halting the…

Wow, thanks a lot for this !

Re: First detection of the missing half of normal matter in our universe

#55

im confused about baryons. they say that it is a particle (presumably like an electron or photon or other particle) but then they go on to say that its a gas, not a particle. very confusing.

When physicists say "baryonic matter" that's more or less just shorthand for "atomic matter".

Atoms are made up of protons, neutrons, and electrons. Between the 3 types of particles the mass of the protons and neutrons outweighs that of the electrons by about 3 orders of magnitude, almost all of the mass is in the nuclear particles. And those particles are baryons, they are, in fact, the lightest baryons, each made up of 3 quarks. Only the proton and anti-proton baryons are stable in isolation, but in nuclei protons plus neutrons can be stable together and anti-protons plus anti-neutrons can also be stable together.

Re: First detection of the missing half of normal matter in our universe

#56

Can I just check - my understanding is that we can only see 5% of the expected mass in the universe - so we have just found another 5%? meaning dark matter needs to account for 90%? plus, how awesomely beautiful is the idea of tendrils of has connecting the galaxies through space.

That's not it. We can figure out what the mass makeup of the Universe is through various independent means, and those are also independent of direct observation. Those lines of evidence tell us the Universe is a 69:26:5 split between dark energy, dark matter, and ordinary atomic (baryonic) matter. None of that has changed.

However, we've only been able to actually detect much less than that 5% contribution of the atomic matter in the Universe, meaning that we expect there's a lot more ordinary matter out there that we can't see. This research indicates that a big chunk of that missing ordinary matter is in the form of huge warm gas clouds on galactic scales.

Re: First detection of the missing half of normal matter in our universe

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> basically only gravity and not EM or other forces I don't understand how physicists make any sense of this in any kind of theory. If you had enough dark matter sitting in some spot that could turn into a star, suddenly the claim is any ordinary matter around it would stay near absolute zero no matter how much nuclear fusion was going on at the same spot? How does that work? Or would dark matter just somehow resist…

A star begins as a huge lump of gravitationally bound gas. This gas runs into each other, that's how it has pressure and temperature, even when it is as diffuse as a proto-stellar nebula is (which can be on the order of tens to hundreds of atoms per cubic centimeter). The nebula goes through cycles of compression and radiation, as the gas collapses due to gravitation it heats up, raising the pressure and halting the…

How seriously taken are theories that posit the existence of extra spatial dimensions as an explanation for dark matter? E.g. dark matter could be "ordinary" matter but separated from our 3 spatial dimensions by a discrete spatial dimension or dimensions.

Re: First detection of the missing half of normal matter in our universe

#58
post #11

> At the largest size, Google image search tells me that it looks exactly like foam rubber. Foam rubber is created by combining a chemical agent that glomps together through the wonder of polymerization with another chemical agent that delivers lots of gas bubbles to make space between the polymers. Universes are created by rapidly expanding a superdense plasma that glomps together through the wonders of gravity, whi…

Why should vacuum expand?

Is it due to gravity of the filament molecules pulling those molecules together into larger 'strings' or 'planes' which leave 'holes'? Or some other mechanism?

Re: First detection of the missing half of normal matter in our universe

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I too love the idea of there being filaments of matter connecting distant galaxies. I can only imagine the artistic renderings will make the universe look like a neural network. Can anyone clarify how these filaments remain “hot”?

>things in motion tend to stay in motion comes to mind

Motion is relative though. And just because something is moving relative to another thing does not necessarily mean it is hot.

Re: First detection of the missing half of normal matter in our universe

#60

Dang I read the first paragraph of the article and immediately went searching for the real papers since I didn't expect any media outlet to include them at the bottom, but here they are for anyone who made the same mistake I did! https://arxiv.org/abs/1709.05024 https://arxiv.org/abs/1709.10378 Not a cosmologist but here's my go at the de Graff paper. (Let's get this out of the way, the title is click-bait and the pa…

> Let's get this out of the way, the title is click-bait and the paper/researchers makes no such claims as to anything near 50%. New Scientist is trolling for hits with the word "half" or the journalist is fundamentally misunderstanding the work.

At first I agreed with you, but I've dug into the articles and re-read the New Scientist article too to make sure, and it seems the story is a bit more complicated than it at first appears (caveat: I'm also not a cosmologist). They should have clarified this research does not involve dark matter though.

Part of the confusion stems from losing context and awareness of implicit limits to the claims when translating exact cosmological terms to popular science. "Baryonic matter" means nothing to the average person, and calling it "observable matter" could also be confusing to lay-people, since this matter isn't actually directly observable:

> “There’s no sweet spot – no sweet instrument that we’ve invented yet that can directly observe this gas,” says Richard Ellis at University College London. “It’s been purely speculation until now.”

However, the researchers do seem to claim they solved the mystery of the missing observable matter by detecting gas filaments:

> “The missing baryon problem is solved,” says Hideki Tanimura at the Institute of Space Astrophysics in Orsay, France, leader of one of the groups. The other team was led by Anna de Graaff at the University of Edinburgh, UK.

Whether that can should be translated as "finding the missing 50% of observable matter" depends on whether those baryons are in fact 50% of missing observable matter. To make things more confusing for non-cosmologists here, the two papers tell slightly different stories, because they don't do the exact same thing. De Graaff's paper mentions a much lower number than 50%, as you stated, but the introduction of Tanimura mentions:

> At high redshift (z ≳ 2), most of the expected baryons are found in the Lyα absorption forest: the diffuse, photo-ionized in- tergalactic medium (IGM) with a temperature of 10⁴ – 10⁵ K (e.g., Weinberg et al. 1997; Rauch et al. 1997). However, at redshifts z ≲ 2, the observed baryons in stars, the cold interstellar medium, residual Lyα forest gas, OVI and BLA absorbers, and hot gas in clusters of galaxies account for only ∼50% of the expected baryons – the remainder has yet to be identified (e.g., Fukugita & Peebles 2004; Nicastro et al. 2008; Shull et al. 2012). Hydrodynamical simulations suggest that 40–50% of baryons could be in the form of shock-heated gas in a cosmic web between clusters of galaxies.

It looks like this is where that half in the New Scientist title comes from: 40-50% of missing baryons should be in these gas filaments. This might appear to contradict De Graaf et al., but the latter mention Tanimura et al. in the conclusions of their paper:

> Similar conclusions to this work have been independently drawn by Tanimura et al. (...) who announced their analysis (...) at the same time as this publication. (my summary: We used different, independent but complementary galaxy pair catalogues). Despite the differences, we achieved similar results in terms of the amplitudes and statistical significances of the filament signal. (...) The fact that two independent studies using two different catalogues achieve similar conclusions provides strong evidence for the detection of gas filaments.

So given that these two groups seem to be in agreement with each other's conclusions, and that Tanimura himself was quoted (so presumably consulted for the article), it seems that the main clickbait aspect of the New Scientist article is that they did not clarify that no dark matter is involved in this story.

Post reply on HN