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Microsoft gives up on Windows 10 Mobile

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Microsoft gives up on Windows 10 Mobile

#631

Post by pjmlp »

DiabloD3 wrote: post #628
pjmlp wrote: post #625

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android Studio is a fork of InteliJ, you cannot use it as InteliJ, because the options are tailored for Android, If you use InteliJ with Android plugin instead, then you will always be behind the curve of the actual Android development, as JetBrains catches up.

How is it a fork of a closed source product, and how is the developer of said closed source product behind the curve of their own product?

Ever heard about cooperation and developer agreements between companies?

Re: Microsoft gives up on Windows 10 Mobile

#632

Post by pjmlp »

kuschku wrote: post #630
DiabloD3 wrote: post #628

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it a fork of a closed source product, and how is the developer of said closed source product behind the curve of their own product?

IntelliJ isn't closed source, it's on GitHub, under an open license. As are most of the premium IDE plugins from JetBrains.

Only the community edition code.

Re: Microsoft gives up on Windows 10 Mobile

#633

Post by michaelmrose »

fpig wrote: post #519
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure it requires a rewrite, the old stuff still works. The trouble is the constant churn is draining, I've pretty much abandoned the platform because of it. We keep hearing about new JavaScript frameworks but we had exactly the same from MS: win32 => MFC => WTL => VB => WFC => Winforms => WPF => Metro => UWP, no doubt there is something else just around the corner.

Calling that "constant churn" is a massive exaggeration. First, using WTL or WFC were just bad decisions because those were side-projects and MS never told companies to switch to that and definitely didn't encourage rewrites into that. They were not replacements of anything by any stretch of imagination. That's like complaining that MS made you rewrite your app in Lightswitch or IronPython. It is just a side-project,…

Your 5 times in 25 years suggests an overhaul every 5 years. Context matters. WPF became mainstream in 2007

WPF, Metra, UWP, and Silverlight in 2007 -> 2017 is 4 overhauls in 10 years or an overhaul every 2.5 years.

Also not fixing bugs in earlier tech creates a compulsion to switch to the next tech.

Re: Microsoft gives up on Windows 10 Mobile

#634

Post by contextfree »

michaelmrose wrote: post #633
fpig wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling that "constant churn" is a massive exaggeration. First, using WTL or WFC were just bad decisions because those were side-projects and MS never told companies to switch to that and definitely didn't encourage rewrites into that. They were not replacements of anything by any stretch of imagination. That's like complaining that MS made you rewrite your app in Lightswitch or IronPython. It is just a side-project,…

Your 5 times in 25 years suggests an overhaul every 5 years. Context matters. WPF became mainstream in 2007 WPF, Metra, UWP, and Silverlight in 2007 -> 2017 is 4 overhauls in 10 years or an overhaul every 2.5 years. Also not fixing bugs in earlier tech creates a compulsion to switch to the next tech.

metro/winrt -> uwp wasn't really an overhaul, it was just a new name for the next version of the same thing more or less.

Re: Microsoft gives up on Windows 10 Mobile

#635

Post by bonesss »

cjsuk wrote: post #515
bnolsen wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, imagine someone trying to make this statement 15 years ago...things have sure changed.

Indeed. 15 years ago I kind of enjoyed it. Win32/winforms is still less horrible than the web these days.

What I find missing, compared to back-in-the-day, is the _maturity_ of that ecosystem.

Win32 has warts on warts, but around the year 2000 the MS development space was a monoculture and the COM-to-GUI story was increasingly mature and integrated.

.Net came along and, on the one hand, positioned MS to be a whole different kind of tool provider (F# on dotnet core on linux in kuberernetes is niiiiice), but they also lost a few hundred man-years worth of local improvements to their platform. This without providing a credible replacement for Win32 ensuring it would be around for decades.

That fracture fractured again with XAML, again losing tons of maturity, and then fractured even further with the UWP/Silverlight/Metro/WhoKnows. I've never been a bigger fan of MS's product line, but can't justify or defend using much on the client other than html for fancy things or standard winforms for deployability.

Re: Microsoft gives up on Windows 10 Mobile

#636

Post by bonesss »

flukus wrote: post #561
CharlesC wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clickonce is such garbage. I'm sorry I ever heard of it.

I can't believe an company so vested in the enterprise market can do such a terrible job of allowing companies to deploy enterprise software. Click once isn't supported in VS anymore, and was always horrible when it came to things like CI servers anyway. Windows 10 store requires running on azure which make it a no go, doesn't allow push updates anyway. The best options have always been third party ones like chocolat…

Click-Once is like... the smartest idea that ever got built by people who have never worked in places that need something like Click-Once.

I am of the opinion that if they had dropped the "use apps over the web" angle and focused on small-medium-enterprise continuous deployment they woulda had a true game changer on their hands... Click-Once dovetails naturally into something like Apples launchpad, its "turn it off and turn it on again" workflow was ideal for 'Sue in Accounting', its simplified publishing model is great for ISVs with lots of customers, and its sandboxy requirements are a natural fit for the way dotnet core is coming together.

And, yeah, that the Windows ecosystem is still worseoff than apt-get forever ago is a) shocking, b) further proof that Richard Stallman was right about everything ;)

Re: Microsoft gives up on Windows 10 Mobile

#637

Post by usrusr »

JohnBooty wrote: post #607
usrusr wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My pet theory is that this is because the dev tools department at Microsoft is not a pure cost centre with the sole task of improving the platform, they have Visual Studio licenses to sell. If there is any truth in that, we should see a slow decline in "API of the year" as non-subscription licenses (where customers are prone to skip an update when it does not have enough "revolutionary must-haves") are slowly phased…

My pet theory is that this is because the dev tools department at Microsoft is not a pure cost centre with the sole task of improving the platform, they have Visual Studio licenses to sell. This is the single most baffling thing about Windows to me, and it always has been. Why insist on trying to sell Visual Studio licenses, instead of maximizing the amount of software written for your platform(s)? It doesn't even se…

MS DOS used to come with a Basic interpreter, if that's what you mean ;)

Later, when the PC platform became what we know today, there wasn't really a channel for free (small f) software except shareware magazines and Microsoft surely would not be seen with that crowd! In those days, Microsoft wasn't concerned with losing the heads and minds to another platform but with losing the revenue to Borland. Since then, more and more has been made available (I still fondly remember laying my hands on the first Windows SDK day came with a free command line version of the MSVC compiler), but it is a culture shift that won't be rushed as long as there are no really pressing reasons.

Re: Microsoft gives up on Windows 10 Mobile

#638

Post by contextfree »

bonesss wrote: post #636
flukus wrote: post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't believe an company so vested in the enterprise market can do such a terrible job of allowing companies to deploy enterprise software. Click once isn't supported in VS anymore, and was always horrible when it came to things like CI servers anyway. Windows 10 store requires running on azure which make it a no go, doesn't allow push updates anyway. The best options have always been third party ones like chocolat…

Click-Once is like... the smartest idea that ever got built by people who have never worked in places that need something like Click-Once. I am of the opinion that if they had dropped the "use apps over the web" angle and focused on small-medium-enterprise continuous deployment they woulda had a true game changer on their hands... Click-Once dovetails naturally into something like Apples launchpad, its "turn it off a…

the next Windows update adds ClickOnce-like functionality to its app installer: https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/appinstaller/2017/09/27/aut...

perhaps doesn't solve your problems yet :)

Re: Microsoft gives up on Windows 10 Mobile

#639

Post by bonesss »

JohnBooty wrote: post #607
usrusr wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My pet theory is that this is because the dev tools department at Microsoft is not a pure cost centre with the sole task of improving the platform, they have Visual Studio licenses to sell. If there is any truth in that, we should see a slow decline in "API of the year" as non-subscription licenses (where customers are prone to skip an update when it does not have enough "revolutionary must-haves") are slowly phased…

My pet theory is that this is because the dev tools department at Microsoft is not a pure cost centre with the sole task of improving the platform, they have Visual Studio licenses to sell. This is the single most baffling thing about Windows to me, and it always has been. Why insist on trying to sell Visual Studio licenses, instead of maximizing the amount of software written for your platform(s)? It doesn't even se…

Licensing their dev toools gives discounts on tools for development which pushes orgs to buy for-realsies licenses.

Partnering with them gives rebates on their dev tools licenses and gives you kickback when you push your customers to buy for-realsies licenses.

VS is just the fishermans hook, the haul are the 600 SQL server CPU licenses you have ticking all day, every day.

Re: Microsoft gives up on Windows 10 Mobile

#640

Post by kuschku »

pjmlp wrote: post #632
kuschku wrote: post #630

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IntelliJ isn't closed source, it's on GitHub, under an open license. As are most of the premium IDE plugins from JetBrains.

Only the community edition code.

Plus 90% of the addons.

Only a handful of them aren’t.

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