Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Tokyo Is Preparing for Floods ‘Beyond Anything We’ve Seen’

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 223 posts

Re: Tokyo Is Preparing for Floods ‘Beyond Anything We’ve Seen’

#21

Post by pascalxus »

acabal wrote: post #10

It's so crazy to me that everyone in vulnerable places--Tokyo and Houston in the article for example--are happy to spend hundreds of millions, even billions, to put a bandaid on their local climate change problems. It seems like they all acknowledge the reality and danger of climate change and are willing to spend money on it. In TFA Houston wants $400 million to build a reservoir. They seem to acknowledge that thing…

The same thing happens with our health. People would rather spend trillions of dollars on health care, rather than start eating healthy. 70% of all healthcare dollars go towards diseases and causes of death that are lifestyle related causes (eating, nutrtion, excercise, smoking, etc)

Re: Tokyo Is Preparing for Floods ‘Beyond Anything We’ve Seen’

#22

Post by r00fus »

mikeyanderson wrote: post #9

Hurricane Katrina was estimated to have over $200 billion in losses—if that's true, it seems like there should be more investment in this type of infrastructure.

Why? When you can use disaster capitalism and profit on the "volatility" provided by such events?

Re: Tokyo Is Preparing for Floods ‘Beyond Anything We’ve Seen’

#23

Post by akgerber »

yborg wrote: post #19
poulsbohemian wrote: post #8

I may not understand the scope of this project, but when I read the $2 billion, my thought was "wow that's cheap!" Consider the Big Dig or the current Seattle tunnel, at $14B+ and $3B+ respectively.

Chicago metro Deep Tunnel : $3B https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel_and_Reservoir_Plan

Milwaukee, at well under 1/20th the size of Tokyo, spent $1B on a similar system: https://deeptunnelmke.com/impact/cost/

Re: Tokyo Is Preparing for Floods ‘Beyond Anything We’ve Seen’

#24

Post by blondie9x »

nostrademons wrote: post #17
acabal wrote: post #10

It's so crazy to me that everyone in vulnerable places--Tokyo and Houston in the article for example--are happy to spend hundreds of millions, even billions, to put a bandaid on their local climate change problems. It seems like they all acknowledge the reality and danger of climate change and are willing to spend money on it. In TFA Houston wants $400 million to build a reservoir. They seem to acknowledge that thing…

It's very likely that local band-aids are the most effective way to deal with this. Your train example is a pretty good one, but you've mixed up the metaphor. Here, "stepping out of the way" = mass migrations out of coastal cities. "A mechanized winch that temporarily lifts us over the train" = flood control projects like in Tokyo, Houston, Venice, or the Netherlands. "Calling the train company and asking them to sto…

Adaptation without mitigation will not be effective as the impacts worsen. Uncapped emissions and business as usual scenarios will cause outcomes that we will not be able to build ourselves out of.

We must reduce emissions and push for sustainable infrastructure and solutions, now.

We must adapt and we must also mitigate. Only through the combination of both efforts and through our determination and willingness to lead sustainable lifestyles will we be able to beat climate change. We must push for renewable energy, and technological solutions to efficiently use resources.

The policy coming out of the White House is against these efforts and we need to find a way to prevent them from hurting us and our posterity by postponing the efforts to transition to clean energy.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/09/climate/clean-power-plan....

Re: Tokyo Is Preparing for Floods ‘Beyond Anything We’ve Seen’

#25

Post by nickik »

acabal wrote: post #10

It's so crazy to me that everyone in vulnerable places--Tokyo and Houston in the article for example--are happy to spend hundreds of millions, even billions, to put a bandaid on their local climate change problems. It seems like they all acknowledge the reality and danger of climate change and are willing to spend money on it. In TFA Houston wants $400 million to build a reservoir. They seem to acknowledge that thing…

Simple economics. Its a free rider problem, both on state to federal, as well as federal to global level. There simply are not the institutions to have global solutions.

Re: Tokyo Is Preparing for Floods ‘Beyond Anything We’ve Seen’

#26

Post by ryanmarsh »

acabal wrote: post #10

It's so crazy to me that everyone in vulnerable places--Tokyo and Houston in the article for example--are happy to spend hundreds of millions, even billions, to put a bandaid on their local climate change problems. It seems like they all acknowledge the reality and danger of climate change and are willing to spend money on it. In TFA Houston wants $400 million to build a reservoir. They seem to acknowledge that thing…

Everyone's OK with spending money and manpower on huge public works projects, but they're not OK with addressing habits and addictions that make the projects necessary in the first place.

Careful how you throw around “they” there buddy. We Houstonians are 7 million diverse people doing the best we can with what we have.

Thanks for your outrage on our behalf. Instead of grand standing and virtue signaling perhaps you could, you know, actually do something to help.

Re: Tokyo Is Preparing for Floods ‘Beyond Anything We’ve Seen’

#27

Post by heartbreak »

blondie9x wrote: post #24
nostrademons wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very likely that local band-aids are the most effective way to deal with this. Your train example is a pretty good one, but you've mixed up the metaphor. Here, "stepping out of the way" = mass migrations out of coastal cities. "A mechanized winch that temporarily lifts us over the train" = flood control projects like in Tokyo, Houston, Venice, or the Netherlands. "Calling the train company and asking them to sto…

Adaptation without mitigation will not be effective as the impacts worsen. Uncapped emissions and business as usual scenarios will cause outcomes that we will not be able to build ourselves out of. We must reduce emissions and push for sustainable infrastructure and solutions, now. We must adapt and we must also mitigate. Only through the combination of both efforts and through our determination and willingness to le…

Why can’t Tokyo attempt both adaptation and mitigation? Which happens to be exactly what they’re doing.

Re: Tokyo Is Preparing for Floods ‘Beyond Anything We’ve Seen’

#28

Post by nickik »

danharaj wrote: post #16
eliben wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tragedy of the commons - it's a ubiquitous and powerful economic principle.

The tragedy of the commons is another name for the failure of private property and markets to account for externalities. For a real theory of the commons without leaving mainstream economics cf. Mary Ostrom's Governing the Commons. Otherwise, all of anthropology.

Elinor Ostrom.

Nice podcast on some of these things: http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2009/11/boettke_on_elin.htm...

Re: Tokyo Is Preparing for Floods ‘Beyond Anything We’ve Seen’

#29

Post by ctdonath »

acabal wrote: post #10

It's so crazy to me that everyone in vulnerable places--Tokyo and Houston in the article for example--are happy to spend hundreds of millions, even billions, to put a bandaid on their local climate change problems. It seems like they all acknowledge the reality and danger of climate change and are willing to spend money on it. In TFA Houston wants $400 million to build a reservoir. They seem to acknowledge that thing…

yet everyone there still drives everywhere spewing carbon into their own air with every trip

This.

Every single person who claims they believe global climate change is a very serious, and man-made, problem absolutely should be taking personal steps now to address it. Telecommuting is a thing. Home-solar is a thing. Electric cars are a thing. Quit telling _others_ to solve the problems, and start doing it personally, now.

Put another way: if you're seriously concerned about global climate change, and using gasoline-powered vehicles (directly or by proxy), you're not seriously concerned about climate change - and I can't take your concerns seriously because you don't.

And "leaders" who take private jets to "climate change policy conferences" are straight-up charlatans.

(I'd be construed as a "climate change denier", and yet I do more about mitigating climate change than anyone else I know.)

Be the change you want in the world. You can afford it.

Post reply on HN